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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    When one is not getting a straight answer to a specific question, then yes, one tends to hear what they want from vague answers. Again, what LBJ and Bosh did was unprecedented and changed the way teams do business with their max players.

    The bold is exactly the point of this - or at least what I thought it was. Bosh might have strung along the organization or he might not of. The only people who are going to know are his agent, Bosh, and Raps brass. Considering Bosh and his agent have never claimed contrary and the angry response from BC, well we can certainly make assumptions there as well. But yet again we come back to the point of assumptions and none of us know what really happened.
    My sense is that Bosh had planned / conspired to head to Miami, and organized things to ensure that would happen. That would mean that Colangelo had really no options for trading Bosh, because other teams wouldn't want to give anything of value only to have Bosh sign with Miami as a free agent. Meanwhile, Miami was in the driver's seat for a trade. So, Colangelo's hands were tied. That probably was what ticked him off - Bosh and his agent and Miami took his options away pretty early on, and he was left getting the best deal he could with Miami.

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    • Puffer wrote: View Post
      The only way he could get a "max" contract (in the commonly accepted sense of 'the maximum amount of money I could possibly earn playing basketball') would be if he had resigned with the Raptors. No other team could match the salary the Raptors could have offered. As it was he gave up several millions of dollars to be the #3 guy on a team. You could argue that he got the maximum possible that Miami would give him, but that is stretching a point.
      Just like almost every star free agent since 2000ish Bosh could have used Toronto as a sign and trade. And Toronto would have obliged (technically they could have refused thereby forcing Bosh to take less than the max, but I have yet to see that happen)

      He did anyways even while taking a pay cut. If I'm not mistaken, I don't believe all three could have signed (even while taking the hair cut they did) without the Toronto and Cleveland sign and trades, and that was the only reason Toronto (and Cleveland) even ended up getting anything in return.

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      • http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5360134

        here is an article from when bosh decided on miami. if we take it at face value bosh decided on the heat, period. he was going to be a heat player. riley wanted him at 5 years and bc had to convince him for 6 and a sign and trade.

        ""League sources say Riley is trying to convince Bosh to take the five-year max deal and leave Toronto outright. The Raptors are trying to persuade Bosh to demand a six-year deal and a sign-and-trade so that they get something out of the deal.

        Earlier this week, the Raptors reportedly had been reluctant to do a sign-and-trade, especially with Miami, contending the Heat did not have any players of interest. But if Bosh leaves outright, the Raptors are left with, at most, $4 million in cap space to replace Bosh.

        One source with knowledge of Toronto's thinking told ESPN.com's Marc Stein that the Raptors, as of 9 a.m. ET, had yet to hear anything official from Bosh's camp about his intentions.

        Raptors general manager Bryan Colangelo, in a text message to The Associated Press on Wednesday morning, said, "I have nothing official from anyone.""

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        • if i take this at face value then the reason we got nothing for bosh is because miami had nothing. they had 46 million in cap space, so no assets except beasely. in this case bosh couldnt give a list of preferable teams and let them bid against each other, meanwhile telling colangelo he wants miami. he is now not a member of the toronto raptors and cares as much as we care about the shits we flush.

          "i am going to miami, here is your scraps."(quote not verified to be by chris bosh)

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          • Apollo wrote: View Post
            I can't stand it when people put words in my mouth. Bosh gave no indication that he wasn't going to give the Raptors a chance, he hinted the opposite. He had no intent of staying, it was blatantly obvious come the off-season and there were reports that the trio might have met at the all-star game even to talk about their off-season.

            If Bosh had been straight with the Raptors do you honestly think they would have sat on him and let his contract play out? Other teams are indicating that scenario is bad business and not a likely outcome in the future.
            You are making big assumptions here. Bosh was keeping his options open and the Raptors were one of them. What if Miami wasn't able to clear enough cap space and Bosh had to take too deep a pay cut for his liking? Recall that they made the Beasley trade at the last minute. Would Riley have to 'settle' for Lebron and Wade with Bosh being the odd man out? Then would the Bulls would be the next choice? What if the Bulls signed Amare first? Would Bosh be willing to go to the Knicks as the lone star?

            The above scenarios are just examples, but the point is that Toronto WAS an option, but only if the other 4 or more options didn't pan out. I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. The fact that Toronto was the last option was plain to see for everybody outside of Toronto. Like I said, I recall internet polls on 'Where will Bosh sign in 2010', and even Cleveland was ahead of Toronto (i.e. Bosh joining Lebron on the Cavs). This sort of speculation started in 2008, with plenty of time for BC to assess the situation. BC chose to bet the farm on an extremely low probability option (which you even agree that is the case). That's the real issue here. Bosh is not to blame here, it's Colangelo's risk/reward assessment.

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            • golden wrote: View Post
              You are making big assumptions here. Bosh was keeping his options open and the Raptors were one of them. What if Miami wasn't able to clear enough cap space and Bosh had to take too deep a pay cut for his liking? Recall that they made the Beasley trade at the last minute. Would Riley have to 'settle' for Lebron and Wade with Bosh being the odd man out? Then would the Bulls would be the next choice? What if the Bulls signed Amare first? Would Bosh be willing to go to the Knicks as the lone star?

              The above scenarios are just examples, but the point is that Toronto WAS an option, but only if the other 4 or more options didn't pan out. I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. The fact that Toronto was the last option was plain to see for everybody outside of Toronto. Like I said, I recall internet polls on 'Where will Bosh sign in 2010', and even Cleveland was ahead of Toronto (i.e. Bosh joining Lebron on the Cavs). This sort of speculation started in 2008, with plenty of time for BC to assess the situation. BC chose to bet the farm on an extremely low probability option (which you even agree that is the case). That's the real issue here. Bosh is not to blame here, it's Colangelo's risk/reward assessment.
              so same argument for cleveland gm that lost lebron?

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              • I just remember the Raptors being in the playoff race when trade deadline passed, so he did not want to break the team at that moment. Sh!t happened after and the Bosh injury sealed it.


                -- Charles Barkley

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                • What's gone is gone. Bosh skipped towns, he just won a ring, congrats to him. We should stop dwelling, the future looks bright!

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                  • golden wrote: View Post
                    Like I said, I recall internet polls on 'Where will Bosh sign in 2010', and even Cleveland was ahead of Toronto (i.e. Bosh joining Lebron on the Cavs).
                    I meant to reply to this last time, but really, what the f#$% do internet polls have to do with anything?
                    Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                    • Mess wrote: View Post
                      I meant to reply to this last time, but really, what the f#$% do internet polls have to do with anything?
                      An internet poll is a perfect example of how the general basketball community outside of Toronto viewed the Raptors chances of hanging onto Bosh, well in advance. Most people thought the Raps chances were extremely low. BC gambled on Bosh's 4th or 5th option panning out. That's high risk decision-making, and he got burned. The internet peanut gallery was right in this instance, and he was wrong. BC is paid a lot of money to assess risk/reward and plan scenarios to mitigate risk. What may or may not have happened during the 2010 all-star break with Bosh, Wade and Lebron is irrelevant, yet that's the BC distractive spin that works to stoke up the emotion of scorned fans. Pat Riley was planning years in advance. I need to find the reference, but I recall that Riley tried to acquire Amare via trade even before the summer of 2010 - so Bosh's exit to Miami wasn't so certain.

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                      • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                        so same argument for cleveland gm that lost lebron?
                        I disagree with this, the Cavs had a reason to not trade away Lebron even if they thought he would leave because they were the odds on favourites to win the Championship.

                        The Raptors didn't have much going for them in Bosh's last year. If everything went perfectly we might've sneaked into round 2, only if everything went perfectly.

                        Houston was an obvious trading partner as someone willing to take a gamble that Bosh would stick around and offer us more than the nothing we got from the Heat. Colangelo got greedy and we got less out of it than we did for Carter.

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                        • Letter N wrote: View Post
                          I disagree with this, the Cavs had a reason to not trade away Lebron even if they thought he would leave because they were the odds on favourites to win the Championship.

                          The Raptors didn't have much going for them in Bosh's last year. If everything went perfectly we might've sneaked into round 2, only if everything went perfectly.

                          Houston was an obvious trading partner as someone willing to take a gamble that Bosh would stick around and offer us more than the nothing we got from the Heat. Colangelo got greedy and we got less out of it than we did for Carter.
                          They were 5th heading in to the all-star weekend. If the Raptors went out their best player, you think that would go over well with the fan base?

                          Carter and Bosh were no where near the same talent. Vince led off ESPN every single night at one point. Plus Vince was under contract whereas Bosh was unrestricted. Comparing the two is ridiculous in my opinion.

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                          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            They were 5th heading in to the all-star weekend. If the Raptors went out their best player, you think that would go over well with the fan base?

                            Carter and Bosh were no where near the same talent. Vince led off ESPN every single night at one point. Plus Vince was under contract whereas Bosh was unrestricted. Comparing the two is ridiculous in my opinion.
                            If Bosh ended up bolting from Houston for Miami, then BC would look like a genius. Sure there would be heat from the fanbase for a few months after the trade deadline, but then it would have flipped to kudos in the summer. Yeah, it's all hindsight now, but again, the implication that Bosh was somehow mis-leading the organization and that is the reason we got next to nothing in return for him is ludicrous. The Raptors were Bosh's 4th or 5th option behind Miami, Bulls, Knicks & Cavs, depending upon: (1) what happened at the 2010 trade deadline, (2) where Amare & Boozer landed, (3) cap space of those aforementioned teams, (4) how much of a salary hit Bosh needed to take and of course, where Lebron and Wade ended up.

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                            • golden wrote: View Post
                              If Bosh ended up bolting from Houston for Miami, then BC would look like a genius. Sure there would be heat from the fanbase for a few months after the trade deadline, but then it would have flipped to kudos in the summer. Yeah, it's all hindsight now, but again, the implication that Bosh was somehow mis-leading the organization and that is the reason we got next to nothing in return for him is ludicrous. The Raptors were Bosh's 4th or 5th option behind Miami, Bulls, Knicks & Cavs, depending upon: (1) what happened at the 2010 trade deadline, (2) where Amare & Boozer landed, (3) cap space of those aforementioned teams, (4) how much of a salary hit Bosh needed to take and of course, where Lebron and Wade ended up.
                              I don't think we can make an accurate claim about where Toronto was on Bosh's priority list. The only people who know are Bosh and his agent.

                              But I do agree that Bosh isn't to blame for Colangelo's decision to stand pat. I should point out that I fully understand Colangelo's reasoning for not pulling the trigger at the 2010 trade deadline. But Colangelo gambled and lost. He's really the only person responsible for what happened.

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                              • golden wrote: View Post
                                If Bosh ended up bolting from Houston for Miami, then BC would look like a genius. Sure there would be heat from the fanbase for a few months after the trade deadline, but then it would have flipped to kudos in the summer. Yeah, it's all hindsight now, but again, the implication that Bosh was somehow mis-leading the organization and that is the reason we got next to nothing in return for him is ludicrous. The Raptors were Bosh's 4th or 5th option behind Miami, Bulls, Knicks & Cavs, depending upon: (1) what happened at the 2010 trade deadline, (2) where Amare & Boozer landed, (3) cap space of those aforementioned teams, (4) how much of a salary hit Bosh needed to take and of course, where Lebron and Wade ended up.
                                Unfortunately it is ludicrous in hindsight and in your opinion.

                                There is nothing new in your post that has not already been contradicted.... and I can offer nothing new that has already not been contradicted either. It comes down to what side of the fence you view the few known facts.

                                The reality is no one knows if Bosh told the organization if he was leaving or not. Without a direct answer from him and public denials of rumours stating he wanted out, I imagine BC took him at face value. Clearly this was the wrong thing to do and it also flew in the face of a long history of NBA free agency minus one notable exception.

                                Legally and contractually Bosh owed Toronto nothing and, as it turns out, he gave them nothing. Morally and ethically one could paint any picture they want based on their values.

                                In the end, the league has a new rule: your guy refuses a max deal, trade him. While extensions in the new CBA are shorter and offer less guaranteed money, sign and trades are also shorter and offer less guaranteed money as does signing with a new team in UFA. I guess they are a wash and the extra year, $20M dollars, and 7.5% raises will be harder to turn down with the S&T gone.
                                Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Aug 13, 2012, 01:25 PM.

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