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The Battle for 8

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  • sleepz
    replied
    themasao wrote: View Post
    I disagree. I think teams are very worried about Andrea (have you ever heard Stan Van Gundy talk about trying to cover him? He literally insults his own players in the process) and the ones that aren't often get shredded as a result (see: Utah).

    As already mentioned, Bosh only got doubled because of where he set up his offense -- some teams double the high post regardless of who's playing it because of its low-risk high-reward prospects. Not so with big's sitting on the 3-point line.

    In terms of just straight player comparisons, while Bargnani doesn't have the first step and finishing ability that Bosh had, he's a much better shooter, with deeper range, which is significant in terms of match-up problems. And defensively, they both suck: Bosh is the better help defender; Bargs is the better man defender.

    I realize this isn't completely on-topic, but in a way it's actually quite relevant. One way of answering the "will we make the playoffs?" question is by comparing ourselves to years past when we did, and any time that happens the underlying suggestion is that we might be in the same unfortunate position as those Bosh-era teams. In other words, are we just back at square 1? And I think the answer is a much more hopeful "No".

    EDIT: I didn't really make that last pgh. clear. We're not just in a better position than the Bosh-era teams because Bargs is as good as Bosh was. We're in a better position (and the comparison is accordingly relevant) because this team isn't constructed AROUND Bargs -- a player who, like Bosh, simply isn't good enough to be built around.
    I won't respond to all of your opinions however I will say whether it's man to man defence or help defence, Bosh is the better defender, period, between the two.

    Imo, there is no comparison to even be made.

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  • Nilanka
    replied
    Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is pretty good midrange shooter too. I wouldn't call Bargnani a shooter necessary. I would say his a scorer.
    Maybe last year was an anomaly, but Bargnani shot just 35.6% from 16 feet and beyond.

    Bosh, on the other hand, shot 45.5% from 16 feet and beyond during his final year in Toronto.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Tue Aug 14, 2012, 12:26 PM.

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  • Mediumcore
    replied
    Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is pretty good midrange shooter too. I wouldn't call Bargnani a shooter necessary. I would say his a scorer.
    Good point, however his skill set and mobility or lack there of in comparison to Bosh does not allow him to set up in the mid to high post. He consistently sets up at the three point line with the occassional venture into the low post.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chr1s1anL
    replied
    Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    But doesn't the fact that Bosh could command a double team because he has the ability to play in the post which as you mentioned is low risk and high reward make him more valuable? I'd have to say Bosh is a MUCH better mid range shooter than Bargnani is a long range shooter, so really the match up problems Andrea poses depends on whether his shot is on that particular night or not. If both Bosh and Andrea are having off shooting nights there is still a much better chance that the mid range shooter will be able to make a better percentage of shots than does the 3 point shooter. Also, the distance between Andrea and the basket and Bosh and the basket are vastly different giving Bosh the easier avenue to the basket should either player chose to drive it to the basket. Just saying.

    Agree with you that the team should be in a better position to succeed now the way it is constructed, as opposed to the days of Bosh when it was built around him.
    Bargnani is pretty good midrange shooter too. I wouldn't call Bargnani a shooter necessary. I would say his a scorer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mediumcore
    replied
    themasao wrote: View Post
    I disagree. I think teams are very worried about Andrea (have you ever heard Stan Van Gundy talk about trying to cover him? He literally insults his own players in the process) and the ones that aren't often get shredded as a result (see: Utah).

    As already mentioned, Bosh only got doubled because of where he set up his offense -- some teams double the high post regardless of who's playing it because of its low-risk high-reward prospects. Not so with big's sitting on the 3-point line.

    In terms of just straight player comparisons, while Bargnani doesn't have the first step and finishing ability that Bosh had, he's a much better shooter, with deeper range, which is significant in terms of match-up problems. And defensively, they both suck: Bosh is the better help defender; Bargs is the better man defender.

    I realize this isn't completely on-topic, but in a way it's actually quite relevant. One way of answering the "will we make the playoffs?" question is by comparing ourselves to years past when we did, and any time that happens the underlying suggestion is that we might be in the same unfortunate position as those Bosh-era teams. In other words, are we just back at square 1? And I think the answer is a much more hopeful "No".

    EDIT: I didn't really make that last pgh. clear. We're not just in a better position than the Bosh-era teams because Bargs is as good as Bosh was. We're in a better position (and the comparison is accordingly relevant) because this team isn't constructed AROUND Bargs -- a player who, like Bosh, simply isn't good enough to be built around.
    But doesn't the fact that Bosh could command a double team because he has the ability to play in the post which as you mentioned is low risk and high reward make him more valuable? I'd have to say Bosh is a MUCH better mid range shooter than Bargnani is a long range shooter, so really the match up problems Andrea poses depends on whether his shot is on that particular night or not. If both Bosh and Andrea are having off shooting nights there is still a much better chance that the mid range shooter will be able to make a better percentage of shots than does the 3 point shooter. Also, the distance between Andrea and the basket and Bosh and the basket are vastly different giving Bosh the easier avenue to the basket should either player chose to drive it to the basket. Just saying.

    Agree with you that the team should be in a better position to succeed now the way it is constructed, as opposed to the days of Bosh when it was built around him.

    Leave a comment:


  • themasao
    replied
    sleepz wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is nowhere near the player Bosh was then or now.

    I don't think teams are as worried about Andrea as you think.
    I disagree. I think teams are very worried about Andrea (have you ever heard Stan Van Gundy talk about trying to cover him? He literally insults his own players in the process) and the ones that aren't often get shredded as a result (see: Utah).

    As already mentioned, Bosh only got doubled because of where he set up his offense -- some teams double the high post regardless of who's playing it because of its low-risk high-reward prospects. Not so with big's sitting on the 3-point line.

    In terms of just straight player comparisons, while Bargnani doesn't have the first step and finishing ability that Bosh had, he's a much better shooter, with deeper range, which is significant in terms of match-up problems. And defensively, they both suck: Bosh is the better help defender; Bargs is the better man defender.

    I realize this isn't completely on-topic, but in a way it's actually quite relevant. One way of answering the "will we make the playoffs?" question is by comparing ourselves to years past when we did, and any time that happens the underlying suggestion is that we might be in the same unfortunate position as those Bosh-era teams. In other words, are we just back at square 1? And I think the answer is a much more hopeful "No".

    EDIT: I didn't really make that last pgh. clear. We're not just in a better position than the Bosh-era teams because Bargs is as good as Bosh was. We're in a better position (and the comparison is accordingly relevant) because this team isn't constructed AROUND Bargs -- a player who, like Bosh, simply isn't good enough to be built around.
    Last edited by themasao; Tue Aug 14, 2012, 10:12 AM.

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  • Chr1s1anL
    replied
    sleepz wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is nowhere near the player Bosh was then or now.

    I don't think teams are as worried about Andrea as you think.
    I never said they were the same caliber of players. Bosh is the better all-around player but I feel that Bargnani is just as much of mismatch problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • sleepz
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Denver had a really big star in Carmelo yet are somehow doing just as good without him. *EDIT* I see I am late to the part and Denver has already been discussed, scratch that. I do agree Denver has much more talent than Toronto right now as a direct result of getting a great package for their star player*

    I don't think that is a great argument but I do agree with you the Raps need a lot of things to go their way to make the playoffs.

    Since Bosh wasn't a truly elite talent, I think I would rather roll with the team as currently constructed (i.e. depth and youth) versus most of the Bosh teams (i.e. significant talent drop off). The wild card is Casey is the best coach the Raptors have had in the last 6 years.
    You could be right. Maybe the Raptor team as constructed fares better than those Bosh playoff teams but for me the only ways this happens (playoffs) is if the new additions turn out to be better as a sum than it's individual parts.

    For me, the new players (Lowry, JV, Ross, Fields) need to be the difference, because the old regime (Bargnani, Derozan, Johnson, Calderon) leave much to be desired imo.

    Casey can only do so much. Even good coaches need talent to win.

    Leave a comment:


  • sleepz
    replied
    Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    IMO Bargnani draws just as much defensive attention than Bosh did.
    Bargnani is nowhere near the player Bosh was then or now.

    I don't think teams are as worried about Andrea as you think.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    sleepz wrote: View Post
    Everything needs to go right for the Raps to have a shot at the 8th seed.

    Nothing worng with optimism but reality wins out the majority of the time.

    They won 23 games last year no? They've added players but I'd be hard pressed to say any of them are game changers as JV is not ready to be that type of player, yet.

    The 06/07 team had Chris Bosh. There is no one on this team as good as he was.

    It's nice to have complimentary players but elite talent wins in this league. It would be great if Lowry could take that kind of jump but it's hard to envision that.
    Denver had a really big star in Carmelo yet are somehow doing just as good without him. *EDIT* I see I am late to the part and Denver has already been discussed, scratch that. I do agree Denver has much more talent than Toronto right now as a direct result of getting a great package for their star player*

    I don't think that is a great argument but I do agree with you the Raps need a lot of things to go their way to make the playoffs.

    Since Bosh wasn't a truly elite talent, I think I would rather roll with the team as currently constructed (i.e. depth and youth) versus most of the Bosh teams (i.e. significant talent drop off). The wild card is Casey is the best coach the Raptors have had in the last 6 years.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Aug 13, 2012, 08:59 PM.

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  • d749
    replied
    whats with people thinking the bucks will be good i think that roster is trash. a bunch of bums besides illlyasova and 2 chuckers who dont play any defence.

    Leave a comment:


  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    7th to 10th seems solid for me. Even though I think we'd be a team that makes it to the 8th, or just misses at the 9th.
    Agreed... 7th - 9th in the East seems about right.

    The only benefit about just missing the playoffs this season is that we'd giveup a 2013 end-of-the-lottery 1st round pick to Houston, to complete the Lowry trade. By giving up the pick right away, it takes away the uncertainty surrounding the conditional pick involved, while also allowing the Raps to once again include future 1st round picks (starting with the 2015 pick) in potential trades.

    It would give the rookies (Valanciunas, Ross & Acy) time to acclimate themselves to the NBA, all the young guys a chance to develop individually (rookies, DeRozan, Davis), final evaluations to be made on expiring young contracts (ie: DeRozan, Davis), and the revamped roster a chance to develop some chemistry together, while gaining experience running DC's offensive/defensive systems together.

    I'm not pushing for missing the playoffs or tanking, but if the Raptors are going to miss the playoffs at all during the next 5 seasons, I'd prefer it to be this year and prefer them to get a late lottery pick... thinking purely about the conditional 1st round pick going to Houston and all the various positive/negative ramifications of the conditions placed on the pick.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReubenJRD
    replied
    Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Here's what Steve Brotherston thinks
    7th to 10th seems solid for me. Even though I think we'd be a team that makes it to the 8th, or just misses at the 9th.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chr1s1anL
    replied
    Here's what Steve Brotherston thinks

    Ned Flanders
    Forget the 8th seed… Can the Raptors get the 7th or even the 6th seed? Or do the Raps need everything to go perfect which includes a healthy Bargs and effective rookies to get higher than 8th??

    Stephen Brotherston
    It’s the if everything goes right for Toronto and a couple of other teams struggle with the changes they made – or run into injury problems – situation.

    YES, of course Toronto could find themselves ahead of a team like the Knicks who had chemistry and injury concerns last year, 7th or even 6th is possible – Toronto could also end up in 10th behind the 76ers & Bucks if Toronto runs into injury or chemistry issues. That’s why we play the games.
    Christian
    What’s the ceiling for this Raptors team?

    Stephen Brotherston
    I put the Raptors ceiling this year at 6th place – and that will take a couple of teams to under perform – possible this year with all the roster moves. BUT – I expect them to fight it out for 8th and end up somewhere between 7th-10th.

    That’s the hour for today. Thanks for all the great comments and questions.
    With all the changes we’ve seen to rosters in the NBA – it’s going to be an exciting season with surprise teams more the norm than usual.
    Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Mon Aug 13, 2012, 05:23 PM.

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  • Chr1s1anL
    replied
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Completely agree. But since you can't send a 2nd defender, it's easy to conclude that Bosh required more defensive attention than Bargnani.

    Anyways, to get back on topic, chemistry is a very big deal, no doubt. But this team needs to stay relatively injury free, players need to maintain (or even improve upon) their career bests, and Casey needs to improve too.
    I would agree that health and chemistry will be a big factor.

    Leave a comment:

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