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The Casey Impact - how good can this defence be?

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  • #16
    I am liking the change in tune from many of you these days regarding Bargnani. Does this mean that we are all agreed that he is the best player on this team? Maybe as a fan base we can all agree to stop throwing him under the bus.
    Welp, that sucked.

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    • #17
      Mediumcore wrote: View Post
      "Fields > JJ" Any stats to back that up? From what I have seen of last seasons numbers JJ > Fields (both defesively and offensively.

      "Bargnani = Bargnani" He played 20 games last season so you could argue that filling in for Bargnani with Ed, Amir or whomever should take the credit for our defensive improvements andt having Bargnani return to the starting line for a full season will hurt us defensively.

      "coupled with the addition of a defensive anchor" Tisk, tisk, just irresponsible from a moderator I love the enthusiasm, but lets let him play in the NBA prior to handing out such credit. If the Olympics are any indication he will struggle with "deer in headlights" syndrome.

      Agree that much of how the team does defensively will rely on the improvement of DD and Bargs.
      JJ - based on several past threads, RR posters are split on JJ. Some view his work last year as being the team's "defensive stopper", while other think he was greatly overrated due to his highlight reel blocks getting too much attention. I'm obviously in the latter group. His man defense was average and he gambled way too often to try and go for a steal or block, leaving his man wide open or causing a teammate to try and rotate late. I personally think stats get too much credit, as I prefer to go with my impressions from watching the games. Based on that, I think Fields is at least equal to JJ defensively, if not better. My main rationale is that Fields tends to play better man defense and more controlled within the system, as opposed to JJ trying to go for the personal highlights/stat stuffing (at both ends). I'd be fine considering the starting SF to be a wash defensively, heading into the season though.

      Bargnani was the starting PF and started 1/3 of the games. He only missed the others due to injury, but the team was a visibly/statistically better defensive team even during the games he played. If you try getting cute by considering Bargnani VS Ed/Amir, then you'd have to get into the stats and film to disect all the various starting lineups, since Calderon & DeRozan were the only consistent starters all season long.

      I completely disagree wtih you about Valanciunas. In the Olympics, he was yanked and basically benched after each foul - that won't happen in Toronto. Will he have to deal with foul trouble? Absolutely. Will Casey limit him to 8-12 minutes if he gets 1 or 2 fouls during the game? Highly doubtful. I'm assuming that Valanciunas will be unleashed, allowing him to play aggressive defense, even if he does get into foul trouble. Continually benching him does nothing to correct the fouling problem and will hurt his confidence, as well as likely prompting him to play far less aggressively/effectively (see Amir last year vs Amir in 2010-11). The best way for him to develop is to play the game his way and learn on the court how to be equally effective, without committing the foul. I think he just played scared in the Olympics, knowing he was being counted on to be a difference maker defensively, while also knowing that he'd get benched if he committed a foul. He'll likely rack up the fouls this season, but I think you'll see him play assertive help defense, which will lead to lots of shot altering/blocking - ie: a defensive anchor, albeit a foul-proned one.

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      • #18
        Mediumcore wrote: View Post
        ..."Fields > JJ" Any stats to back that up? From what I have seen of last seasons numbers JJ > Fields (both defesively and offensively....
        Fields comes in at #223 defensively at Hoopdata http://hoopdata.com while James Johnson comes in at #205. Not what I would call a stunning difference. Fields rebounding dropped 50% last season compared to his rookie year. A lot depends on what happens this year.

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        • #19
          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          JJ - based on several past threads, RR posters are split on JJ. Some view his work last year as being the team's "defensive stopper", while other think he was greatly overrated due to his highlight reel blocks getting too much attention. I'm obviously in the latter group. His man defense was average and he gambled way too often to try and go for a steal or block, leaving his man wide open or causing a teammate to try and rotate late. I personally think stats get too much credit, as I prefer to go with my impressions from watching the games. Based on that, I think Fields is at least equal to JJ defensively, if not better. My main rationale is that Fields tends to play better man defense and more controlled within the system, as opposed to JJ trying to go for the personal highlights/stat stuffing (at both ends). I'd be fine considering the starting SF to be a wash defensively, heading into the season though.

          Bargnani was the starting PF and started 1/3 of the games. He only missed the others due to injury, but the team was a visibly/statistically better defensive team even during the games he played. If you try getting cute by considering Bargnani VS Ed/Amir, then you'd have to get into the stats and film to disect all the various starting lineups, since Calderon & DeRozan were the only consistent starters all season long.

          I completely disagree wtih you about Valanciunas. In the Olympics, he was yanked and basically benched after each foul - that won't happen in Toronto. Will he have to deal with foul trouble? Absolutely. Will Casey limit him to 8-12 minutes if he gets 1 or 2 fouls during the game? Highly doubtful. I'm assuming that Valanciunas will be unleashed, allowing him to play aggressive defense, even if he does get into foul trouble. Continually benching him does nothing to correct the fouling problem and will hurt his confidence, as well as likely prompting him to play far less aggressively/effectively (see Amir last year vs Amir in 2010-11). The best way for him to develop is to play the game his way and learn on the court how to be equally effective, without committing the foul. I think he just played scared in the Olympics, knowing he was being counted on to be a difference maker defensively, while also knowing that he'd get benched if he committed a foul. He'll likely rack up the fouls this season, but I think you'll see him play assertive help defense, which will lead to lots of shot altering/blocking - ie: a defensive anchor, albeit a foul-proned one.
          "I'd be fine considering the starting SF to be a wash defensively, heading into the season though." I would to, as I mentioned in my earlier post that though JJ had better numbers Fields' numbers were close behind.

          "Bargnani was the starting PF and started 1/3 of the games" which means 2/3 of the season someone other that Bargnani was our starting power forward and thus contributed 2/3 as much to our defensive ranking this past season. Being that the conversation revolves around whether the team will improve defensively this next season or not it comes to whether you think Bargnani is a better defender than either of Amir or Ed whom would have made up for most of that 2/3 of time Bargnani was out. That would be an interesting thread should you wish to start one.

          "I completely disagree wtih you about Valanciunas" - You skipped my initial and more direct comment that perhaps JV should play an NBA minute prior to tagging him as an "defensive anchor". The comment I made regarding his play in the Olympics was only intended to accent my initial comment. Don't get me wrong though I'm hoping that he's as dominant as what everyone thinks he's going to be. I just don't think saying it in statement form like it's already come to pass is right though.

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          • #20
            Puffer wrote: View Post
            Fields comes in at #223 defensively at Hoopdata http://hoopdata.com while James Johnson comes in at #205. Not what I would call a stunning difference. Fields rebounding dropped 50% last season compared to his rookie year. A lot depends on what happens this year.
            LOL, so what you're saying is JJ > Fields? I realize they are a pretty closely matched. I mentioned in my earlier comment that I'm hoping being a more prominent part of the team than he was in New York may change the stats in Fields' favor.

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            • #21
              Mediumcore wrote: View Post
              "I'd be fine considering the starting SF to be a wash defensively, heading into the season though." I would to, as I mentioned in my earlier post that though JJ had better numbers Fields' numbers were close behind.

              "Bargnani was the starting PF and started 1/3 of the games" which means 2/3 of the season someone other that Bargnani was our starting power forward and thus contributed 2/3 as much to our defensive ranking this past season. Being that the conversation revolves around whether the team will improve defensively this next season or not it comes to whether you think Bargnani is a better defender than either of Amir or Ed whom would have made up for most of that 2/3 of time Bargnani was out. That would be an interesting thread should you wish to start one.

              "I completely disagree wtih you about Valanciunas" - You skipped my initial and more direct comment that perhaps JV should play an NBA minute prior to tagging him as an "defensive anchor". The comment I made regarding his play in the Olympics was only intended to accent my initial comment. Don't get me wrong though I'm hoping that he's as dominant as what everyone thinks he's going to be. I just don't think saying it in statement form like it's already come to pass is right though.
              You only quoted half my sentence about Bargnani. I wasn't comparing him to Davis/Amir, I was stating that regardless of the starting PF the overall defense last year was improved over the previous year, so a Bargnani-to-Bargnani comparison would suffice for a last year vs this year comparitive starting point. I personally thought that aside from rebounding, neither Davis/Amir were much better defensively than Bargnnai was last season (small sample size, I admit). Davis looked utterly lost at times and Amir just wasn't himself for most of last season. That's another reason why I think the PF position is a wash going into this season, when compared to last year.

              I never said that Valanciunas would be dominant. However, even without seeing him play in the NBA, his game is naturally a lot more aggressive when it comes to help-defense and shot blocking than Gray/Amir (ie: last year's starting C). He will need a season or two to fully adjust to the NBA game and will very likely be in foul trouble early and often, but his style of game is quite apparent. He won't dominate, but I still think that just his presence (ie: size, style of play, aggressiveness and hustle) will all be an improvement defensively over last season's starting C.

              I think we can go by position, regardless of names:
              PG - big upgrade defensively + 2
              SG - same player +/- 0
              SF - new player, similar style of play +/- 0 (though I personally think Fields will prove to be a +1)
              PF - partly same player / partly no big difference +/- 0
              C - small upgrade defensively + 1 (consistency and avoiding foul trouble will be a concern)
              Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Aug 23, 2012, 02:54 PM.

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              • #22
                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                You only quoted half my sentence about Bargnani. I wasn't comparing him to Davis/Amir, I was stating that regardless of the starting PF the overall defense last year was improved over the previous year, so a Bargnani-to-Bargnani comparison would suffice for a last year vs this year comparitive starting point. I personally thought that aside from rebounding, neither Davis/Amir were much better defensively than Bargnnai was last season (small sample size, I admit). Davis looked utterly lost at times and Amir just wasn't himself for most of last season. That's another reason why I think the PF position is a wash going into this season, when compared to last year.

                I never said that Valanciunas would be dominant. However, even without seeing him play in the NBA, his game is naturally a lot more aggressive when it comes to help-defense and shot blocking than Gray/Amir (ie: last year's starting C). He will need a season or two to fully adjust to the NBA game and will very likely be in foul trouble early and often, but his style of game is quite apparent. He won't dominate, but I still think that just his presence (ie: size, style of play, aggressiveness and hustle) will all be an improvement defensively over last season's starting C.

                I think we can go by position, regardless of names:
                PG - big upgrade defensively + 2
                SG - same player +/- 0
                SF - new player, similar style of play +/- 0 (though I personally think Fields will prove to be a +1)
                PF - partly same player / partly no big difference +/- 0
                C - small upgrade defensively + 1 (consistency and avoiding foul trouble will be a concern)
                Imo, you can't say you are comparing Bargs to Bargs when speaking of last seasons defence to this seasons. The larger percentage of the defense where it pertains to the PF position was played by someone other than Bargs so the comparison is between them and Bargs.

                You said that JV would be a defensive anchor did you not? Perhaps I'm thinking you are saying he will be a defensive anchor next season, but I think it might be a bit early for that. If you meant a couple seasons down the road then I can see it as a strong possibility due to what you've mentioned already being his hustle, size etc. athletecism etc..

                I feel we will improve defensively, but perhaps not as much as others think we will. I see upgrades at the PG and C positions, but a slight down grade (imo) at SF, and more importantly I think the return of Bargs at the PF may hurt us defensively. It may be that his offensive output will compensate for the down grade in defense as relates to wins and losses, but in a purely defensive conversation I'm calling it as I see it. The SG position I feel is a slight improvement due to experience for DD and T. Ross so far looking like he could be good on defence. At the least he has better size and athletecism than Bayless whom he is replacing as a key player off the bench. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it

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                • #23
                  Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                  "Fields > JJ" Any stats to back that up? From what I have seen of last seasons numbers JJ > Fields (both defesively and offensively.

                  been trying to find opponent per ratings but a quick advanced stats search on basketball reference shows landry is better both offensively and defensively while being used less on offense.

                  http://www.basketball-reference.com/...johnsja01.html
                  http://www.basketball-reference.com/...fieldla01.html

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                  • #24
                    Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                    been trying to find opponent per ratings but a quick advanced stats search on basketball reference shows landry is better both offensively and defensively while being used less on offense.

                    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...johnsja01.html
                    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...fieldla01.html
                    I was just going by the numbers they put up last year, and it was cliear JJ put up the stronger numbers, but as I've mentioned a couple of times in this thread already I think Fields will fare better once he plays a more prominent role, as JJ did with us last season. Here are the numbers I was reffering to.

                    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/james_johnson/
                    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/landry_fields/

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                    • #25
                      Casey's interview on the Fan 590 discussion upcoming training camp.

                      http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/2012/09/...th_jeff_blair/

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