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How does the Raptors bench compare to the Eastern Conference?

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  • #31
    ebrian wrote: View Post
    If you look at Matt52's analysis, you see the Raptors winning 11-1-2 on bench. This clarifies your point (which I agree with at most levels) in that the good teams only need 2-3 players off the bench. We may have a solid 6-12 guys compared to other teams going 6-12 deep, but no one really looks at that. The good teams only care about 6-7, and possibly 8 if there's some injury issues. For some teams that are so good, you really only care about #6. That is the guy who is going to be the difference maker.. the Jason Terry type that is just so good that no one gives a rats ass that our #8 guy Amir Johnson is better than your #8 guy Ian Mahinmi, because at that point you're already losing by 30 so it doesn't matter.

    Let's compare the first two guys off the bench for our team (Amir Johnson and Jose Calderon) against all the other teams:

    Atlanta: Zaza Pachulia, Lou Williams
    Draw. I'd rather have Lou Williams coming off the bench than Jose to be honest, and Amir is slightly better than Zaza.
    Boston: Jason Terry, Jeff Green
    Boston wins this in a landslide. Both those guys would be starters on our team.
    Brooklyn: Reggie Evans, Josh Childress
    Brooklyn is actually quite terrible. I give this one to the Raptors.
    Charlotte: Ben Gordon, Brendan Haywood
    These guys have been good once. If Gordon can rekindle his Chicago days then they are better. Right now it's a tie.
    Chicago*: Taj Gibson, Marquis Teague
    Don't know enough about Teague. I pick Toronto.
    Cleveland: Daniel Gibson, Kelenna Azubuike
    Toronto again.
    Detroit: Austin Daye, Jonas Jerebko
    Toronto again.
    Indiana: Tyler Hansbrough, DJ Augustin
    I say tie. Augustin can run the offense but PG isn't asked to do much on that team. Hansbrough is underrated.
    Miami: Ray Allen, Udonis Haslem
    Not even close.. Miami.
    Milwaukee: Ersan Ilyasova, Luc Richard Mbah a Moute
    Another two guys who would likely start for us. Milwaukee.
    New York: Jason Kidd, Marcus Camby
    I think Kidd will take over the starting job at some point. I pick the Knicks though I can see this being controversial.
    Orlando: JJ Reddick, Al Harrington (Orlando)
    It's close but I give it to Orlando. Harrington is much, much better than Amir.
    Philadelphia: Thaddeus Young, Nick Young (Philly)
    Young is a starter, I give it to Philly.
    Washington: Jordan Crawford, ???
    Terrible. Pick Toronto.

    Looking 2-deep, we're 5-6-3. Not as impressive.
    I disagree with the idea of only 6-7 deep being important in the regular season. No doubt come playoffs rotations get tighter as games get more competitive and there is also more rest between games.

    However, in the regular season, even the really good teams see their 9th-10th man playing upwards of 20 minutes per night:

    Spurs - Matt Bonner - 10th man - 20.4mpg
    Bulls - Taj Gibson - 9th man - 20.4mpg
    HEAT - Mike Miller - 9th man - 19.3mpg
    Celtics - Chris Wilcox - 9th man - 17.2mpg
    OKC - Daequan Cook - 9th man - 17.4mpg
    LAL - Troy Murphy - 9th man - 16.2mpg

    Given the Raptors have been a lottery team for the last couple of years (*EDIT* lol - and by couple I mean 4 *face palm*), just making the playoffs - even to be swept - is a step in the right direction for me.... especially considering the flexibility to be opportunistic should the possibility arise is present.

    I do think the Raptors depth will be a benefit this year in the regular season. I think it could be enough to make the difference between a lottery pick going to Houston and the Raptors making the playoffs.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Sep 18, 2012, 07:28 PM.

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    • #32
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      I disagree with the idea of only 6-7 deep being important in the regular season. No doubt come playoffs rotations get tighter as games get more competitive and there is also more rest between games.

      However, in the regular season, even the really good teams see their 9th-10th man playing upwards of 20 minutes per night:

      Spurs - Matt Bonner - 10th man - 20.4mpg
      Bulls - Taj Gibson - 9th man - 20.4mpg
      HEAT - Mike Miller - 9th man - 19.3mpg
      Celtics - Chris Wilcox - 9th man - 17.2mpg
      OKC - Daequan Cook - 9th man - 17.4mpg
      LAL - Troy Murphy - 9th man - 16.2mpg

      Given the Raptors have been a lottery team for the last couple of years (*EDIT* lol - and by couple I mean 4 *face palm*), just making the playoffs - even to be swept - is a step in the right direction for me.... especially considering the flexibility to be opportunistic should the possibility arise is present.

      I do think the Raptors depth will be a benefit this year in the regular season. I think it could be enough to make the difference between a lottery pick going to Houston and the Raptors making the playoffs.
      I agree totally, from what I've heard, the general playoff rotation is 8 men, sometimes 9. On our team, the extra additions to the Calderon and Johnson, would be Kleiza and Ross. The wing position is tough, offensively can stretch the floor and Calderon can find them for shots. Not to mention Amir in the pick and roll. I also wouldn't be afraid of mixing Acy, Davis, Anderson, Lucas, McGuire with different rotations.

      Looking at our best 12 IMO: Ranking in order.

      Bargnani, Lowry, Calderon, Derozan, Fields, Valanciunas, Ross, Kleiza, Amir, Lucas, Davis, Anderson. *Next 4* Gray, Mcguire, Acy, Magloire.

      I wouldn't be too afraid or worried of throwing Davis, Anderson, or Lucas on a random in-game rotation.

      Exp: *Lucas*, Derozan, Kleiza, Bargnani, Gray. Or a Lowry, Ross, Fields, *Davis*, Valanciunas, and so forth.

      The team is very deep, and our starters other than Bargnani and Lowry may not be as talented as the best teams in the league, but or bench is supreme to others.
      The the one who re-evaluated the Calderon and Amir vs. Other teams' best two off the bench. You have to realize that Calderon is a top 15 POINT GUARD, a point guard league. While a lot of their bench players aren't top 15 position wise.

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      • #33
        http://espn.go.com/nba/team/depth/_/...oronto-raptors

        Check out the ESPN Depth Chart. This chart does not include Aaron Gray yet though...

        Comment


        • #34
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          just making the playoffs - even to be swept - is a step in the right direction for me.... especially considering the flexibility to be opportunistic should the possibility arise is present.
          +1

          Although a sweep will be a tough pill to swallow come May 2013, it would represent a VERY clear step in the right direction, and label the Raptors as a "team on the rise". This can only help our chances in free agency.

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          • #35
            Though I can't see us making the playoffs (you need about 38 wins), if we did make them make the playoffs the sweep is inevitable.
            your pal,
            ebrian

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            • #36
              Nilanka wrote: View Post
              +1

              Although a sweep will be a tough pill to swallow come May 2013, it would represent a VERY clear step in the right direction, and label the Raptors as a "team on the rise". This can only help our chances in free agency.
              2009-10 Charlotte Bobcats

              Finished 7th in the conference (step up from 10th the year before)

              1st overrall ranked defense in the league that year

              Coach - Larry Brown. A highly respected defensive oriented coach

              Key Players:

              Tyson Chandler age 27
              Raymond Felton age 25
              Gerald Wallace age 27
              Stephen Jackson age 31
              Boris Diaw age 27
              Tyrus Thomas age 23
              Gerald Henderson age 22
              Theo Ratliff age 36
              DJ Augustin age 22
              Nazr Mohammed 32

              A hard working, defense oriented team on the rise. A combination of youth and veterans, potential and experience - swept in the playoffs, end up 10th in the league the following year, then is blown up and becomes the worst team in NBA history a year after that.

              Now Charlotte may in some ways be extreme (a clear attempt tear apart the team and tank last year), but the story isn't unique. A team moving into the playoffs is a team on the rise until its a team taking a face plant into the ceiling they created. Either no stud (or perhaps the belief that they have potential studs on their team) or believing they can build that ultra rare Detroit Pistons like 'perfect' team.

              A team isn't likely to jump from near the bottom to a contender over night, and I don't think too many expect that. But that step into the playoffs is just as likely to be that step into the teams ceiling or on to the treadmill of mediocrity without a very high level of talent on the team.

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              • #37
                The biggest difference between that Charlotte team and the current Raptors team is the relative age difference. Most of the players who propelled the Bobcats were in their relative primes (Jackson, Wallace, Chandler, Felton, etc.). There was no reason to think that they would ever improve on their 7th place finish without bringing in new talent.

                But with the Raptors, if they were to make the playoffs this year, I'm sure Lowry, DeRozan, Fields, and Valanciunas (all young, unproven players) would be doing a lot of the heavy lifting. And with none of them in their primes yet, it isn't far-fetched to assume their games will improve following this season.

                I agree that we're still lacking the "elite" talent to take the big step forward, but based on the young roster, it's easy to see this team improving internally compared to the aging Bobcats of 2009-10.

                Add in the fact that Larry Brown has historically been viewed as a coach who doesn't work well with young players, and it becomes clear(er) why the Bobcats weren't able to maintain their growth by relying on their younger players moving forward.

                I'm not saying that making the playoffs is a sure bet sign of continued improvement. Nothing is guaranteed in pro sports. Injuries happen, chemistry doesn't develop, egos clash, etc. But for now anyways, it seems like we're pointed in the right direction.
                Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:56 PM.

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                • #38
                  Nilanka wrote: View Post
                  The biggest difference between that Charlotte team and the current Raptors team is the relative age difference. Most of the players who propelled the Bobcats were in their relative primes (Jackson, Wallace, Chandler, Felton, etc.). There was no reason to think that they would ever improve on their 7th place finish without bringing in new talent.

                  But with the Raptors, if they were to make the playoffs this year, I'm sure Lowry, DeRozan, Fields, and Valanciunas (all young, unproven players) would be doing a lot of the heavy lifting. And with none of them in their primes yet, it isn't far-fetched to assume their games will improve following this season.

                  I agree that we're still lacking the "elite" talent to take the big step forward, but based on the young roster, it's easy to see this team improving internally compared to the aging Bobcats of 2009-10.

                  Add in the fact that Larry Brown has historically been viewed as a coach who doesn't work well with young players, and it becomes clear(er) why the Bobcats weren't able to maintain their growth by relying on their younger players moving forward.

                  I'm not saying that making the playoffs is a sure bet sign of continued improvement. Nothing is guaranteed in pro sports. Injuries happen, chemistry doesn't develop, egos clash, etc. But for now anyways, it seems like we're pointed in the right direction.
                  First I'll say that I don't necessarily think the Raptors will be the next Bobcats.

                  But that Bobcats team wasn't exactly much older than the Raps are now. The majority of the (key) players on this Raps team is what 26 and younger(?) Team age (excluding guys who likely won't play much - Anderson, Magloire, Lucas) will be approx 26 this year (?) While the majority of that Bobcats team was 27 and younger (which is pretty was the average age of that team (again excluding rarely used players) and the average age of the league aswell I think) Felton was in his 4th year, Henderson a rookie, Augustine 2nd year, Thomas 4th year, Brown a rookie. Bobcats were a bit older than Toronto will be this year, but its not like they were the Dallas Mavericks or Boston Celtics either. And I can tell you, rightly or wrongly, Bobcats fans were real high on those guys potential at that point to.

                  Brown did have a reputation of being a coach who didn't want to play young guys - but can we say that Casey is unequivantley different? He already stated this past offseason he wanted veterans, Colangelo said two young bigs was enough for him, and guys like Ed and Alabi didn't exactly rack up minutes last year (even while the team was well out of a playoff opportunity and minutes were freely available due to injuries). Bayless was only a starter during Jose's injuries. Butler was starting over James Johnson for quite some time, and even after that Alan Anderson was. Raps were around middle of the pack age wise, but their weighted age (ie. minutes played) moved them into 11th oldest in the league (ie. they played older not younger). The years before in Dallas he worked with a very old veteran team. Not saying Casey won't play young guys (he is in some ways obligated to regardless because of the build of this team) but I can say nothing over the past year has convinced me that Casey will be prone towards 'developing' youth (yes I dislike that buzzphrase but I can't think of a better word off hand).

                  But anyways, the real difference between 2009/10 OKC - 2006/7 Raptors (another example that we can all more easily relate to) - 2009/10 Bobcats is the difference between:

                  Durant - Bosh - Wallace
                  Westbrook - Ford - Felton
                  Green - Parker - Jackson

                  Looking at the Raptors 'big 3' (using that term loosely ofcourse) I think Bargnani - Lowry - Derozan stacks up alot closer to the middle or right of that list than the left.

                  Thats why I'm not convinced a step forward (ie. into or near the playoffs) is necessarily a step in the 'right' direction. As opposed to the step before two steps backwards or the step onto the treadmill.

                  Personally what I see as a much more important step is not where the Raptors finish (although extremely low or high in the standings would be significant, but I don't think realistic)... but what Bargnani, Demar, Val and Ross end up doing. (and to a lesser degree Lowry - not because he is less important, but rather I think more reliable)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    I disagree with the idea of only 6-7 deep being important in the regular season. No doubt come playoffs rotations get tighter as games get more competitive and there is also more rest between games.

                    However, in the regular season, even the really good teams see their 9th-10th man playing upwards of 20 minutes per night:

                    Spurs - Matt Bonner - 10th man - 20.4mpg
                    Bulls - Taj Gibson - 9th man - 20.4mpg
                    HEAT - Mike Miller - 9th man - 19.3mpg
                    Celtics - Chris Wilcox - 9th man - 17.2mpg
                    OKC - Daequan Cook - 9th man - 17.4mpg
                    LAL - Troy Murphy - 9th man - 16.2mpg
                    Hmm.. I don't agree with that. Your measurement of mpg is misleading because you're missing when they're playing those minutes. Based on average minutes you'll see that Mike Miller was a 9th man, but if you look closely at his games played, he lined up as either the 1st or 2nd guy off the bench when healthy. Here's a log of his top 10 most minute games:

                    Bulls, April 12, 28:33, 6th in mins played
                    Houston, April 22, 27:12, 5th in mins played
                    Cleveland, Feb 17, 26:10, 6th in mins played
                    Detroit, Jan 25, 25:54, 6th in mins played
                    Washington, Apr 21, 25:37, 5th in mins played
                    New Jersey, Apr 16, 25:30, 4th in mins played
                    Detroit, Apr 8, 24:21, 6th in mins played
                    Cleveland, Feb 7, 23:55, 6th in mins played
                    Portland, Mar 1, 23:37, 7th in mins played
                    Boston, Apr 24, 23:34, 6th in mins played

                    Since he only appeared in 39 games last year, already you see that 25% of his 2011-2012 season he was Miami's 6th.

                    I'm not going to list out all the games of the remaining players but here are the results:

                    Bonner's top 10 games, averaged 4th most minutes.
                    Gibson's top 10 games, averaged 3rd most minutes. Definitely not a 9th man.
                    Wilcox's top 10 games, averaged 5th most minutes.
                    Cook's top 10 games, averaged 4th most minutes.
                    Murphy's top 10 games, averaged 5th most minutes.

                    So what you're looking at is even though over the season they had the 9th or 10th most minutes, they were called upon to be their teams' 6th man (or 3rd or 4th in some cases). This means that these good teams are still using a rotation of 6 or 7 guys in the regular season just like playoffs, the difference is that they have a stable of studs from which to choose from.
                    your pal,
                    ebrian

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Craiger wrote: View Post
                      First I'll say that I don't necessarily think the Raptors will be the next Bobcats.

                      But that Bobcats team wasn't exactly much older than the Raps are now. The majority of the (key) players on this Raps team is what 26 and younger(?) Team age (excluding guys who likely won't play much - Anderson, Magloire, Lucas) will be approx 26 this year (?) While the majority of that Bobcats team was 27 and younger (which is pretty was the average age of that team (again excluding rarely used players) and the average age of the league aswell I think) Felton was in his 4th year, Henderson a rookie, Augustine 2nd year, Thomas 4th year, Brown a rookie. Bobcats were a bit older than Toronto will be this year, but its not like they were the Dallas Mavericks or Boston Celtics either. And I can tell you, rightly or wrongly, Bobcats fans were real high on those guys potential at that point to.

                      Brown did have a reputation of being a coach who didn't want to play young guys - but can we say that Casey is unequivantley different? He already stated this past offseason he wanted veterans, Colangelo said two young bigs was enough for him, and guys like Ed and Alabi didn't exactly rack up minutes last year (even while the team was well out of a playoff opportunity and minutes were freely available due to injuries). Bayless was only a starter during Jose's injuries. Butler was starting over James Johnson for quite some time, and even after that Alan Anderson was. Raps were around middle of the pack age wise, but their weighted age (ie. minutes played) moved them into 11th oldest in the league (ie. they played older not younger). The years before in Dallas he worked with a very old veteran team. Not saying Casey won't play young guys (he is in some ways obligated to regardless because of the build of this team) but I can say nothing over the past year has convinced me that Casey will be prone towards 'developing' youth (yes I dislike that buzzphrase but I can't think of a better word off hand).

                      But anyways, the real difference between 2009/10 OKC - 2006/7 Raptors (another example that we can all more easily relate to) - 2009/10 Bobcats is the difference between:

                      Durant - Bosh - Wallace
                      Westbrook - Ford - Felton
                      Green - Parker - Jackson

                      Looking at the Raptors 'big 3' (using that term loosely ofcourse) I think Bargnani - Lowry - Derozan stacks up alot closer to the middle or right of that list than the left.

                      Thats why I'm not convinced a step forward (ie. into or near the playoffs) is necessarily a step in the 'right' direction. As opposed to the step before two steps backwards or the step onto the treadmill.

                      Personally what I see as a much more important step is not where the Raptors finish (although extremely low or high in the standings would be significant, but I don't think realistic)... but what Bargnani, Demar, Val and Ross end up doing. (and to a lesser degree Lowry - not because he is less important, but rather I think more reliable)
                      I'm not entirely sure what your proposed plan would be, in place of the one that BC is currently following. Drafting Durant can't really be called a strategy, so much as dumb luck. The Raps can keep tanking, but at some point they need to attempt to improve and actually start winning (I was on the pro-tank side this past season, in the hopes of getting somebody better than Ross, but I am definitely on the pro-winning side going into this season).

                      The Raptors have gone away from the stop-gap free agent signings that plagued the Bosh-era Raptors, have shed all their bad contracts (ie: Turkoglu) and have made lottery picks for 4 straight years that were widely regarded as BPA type picks (DeRozan, Davis, Valanciunas and Ross). It seems to me like BC is doing everything possible to build a solid, much improved team. I'm not sure how that can't be perceived as anything but a step forward.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        ebrian wrote: View Post
                        Hmm.. I don't agree with that. Your measurement of mpg is misleading because you're missing when they're playing those minutes. Based on average minutes you'll see that Mike Miller was a 9th man, but if you look closely at his games played, he lined up as either the 1st or 2nd guy off the bench when healthy. Here's a log of his top 10 most minute games:

                        Bulls, April 12, 28:33, 6th in mins played
                        Houston, April 22, 27:12, 5th in mins played
                        Cleveland, Feb 17, 26:10, 6th in mins played
                        Detroit, Jan 25, 25:54, 6th in mins played
                        Washington, Apr 21, 25:37, 5th in mins played
                        New Jersey, Apr 16, 25:30, 4th in mins played
                        Detroit, Apr 8, 24:21, 6th in mins played
                        Cleveland, Feb 7, 23:55, 6th in mins played
                        Portland, Mar 1, 23:37, 7th in mins played
                        Boston, Apr 24, 23:34, 6th in mins played

                        Since he only appeared in 39 games last year, already you see that 25% of his 2011-2012 season he was Miami's 6th.

                        I'm not going to list out all the games of the remaining players but here are the results:

                        Bonner's top 10 games, averaged 4th most minutes.
                        Gibson's top 10 games, averaged 3rd most minutes. Definitely not a 9th man.
                        Wilcox's top 10 games, averaged 5th most minutes.
                        Cook's top 10 games, averaged 4th most minutes.
                        Murphy's top 10 games, averaged 5th most minutes.

                        So what you're looking at is even though over the season they had the 9th or 10th most minutes, they were called upon to be their teams' 6th man (or 3rd or 4th in some cases). This means that these good teams are still using a rotation of 6 or 7 guys in the regular season just like playoffs, the difference is that they have a stable of studs from which to choose from.
                        I didn't pick 9th or 10th most minutes. I said 9th or 10th most minutes played per game. I also looked at the total numbers of games played. With Miami for example, I didn't use Turiaf as an example because (going from memory) I think he only played around 15 games.

                        Many of those reserves were/are decent players. You are going with top 10 games most games played. Isn't it likely:

                        1) an injury/foul trouble/ejection could have led to increased minutes in a number of games?

                        2) those players were "on" or "hot" for a number of games leading the coaches to make decisions to increase their play?

                        3) there was a situational match up?

                        4) many of the games were in garbage time of the year with starters sat? Looking at a lot of the dates for Miller, 6 were in April last season.

                        5) that those teams - especially because they were all division winners - were involved in numerous blowouts one way (losing) or more likely the other (winning)?

                        I'm sure we could both make pretty solid arguments on the playing time of the 9th or 10th. However, I am going to have to disagree with your regular season conclusion - much like you are going to disagree with my concusions... agree to disagree it is - lol.

                        Your point to when the minutes played is a good one but they still played the minutes. 82 games is a long grind for just 7 bodies. Again, I can't emphasis enough things definitely change come playoffs and my argument in regular season definitely doesn't apply to playoffs.

                        The majority of teams - including divisional winners - are 9-10 deep in the regular season, in my opinion. Factors leading to this in the regular season include match ups (Aaron Gray on a big body), injuries (please god nothing long term), foul trouble (Bargnani picked up his 3rd at the start of the 2nd quarter) or nights when a reserve is on (Amir going for 15/11). I think this bodes well for the Raptors this year.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          I'm not entirely sure what your proposed plan would be, in place of the one that BC is currently following. ...It seems to me like BC is doing everything possible to build a solid, much improved team. I'm not sure how that can't be perceived as anything but a step forward.
                          I agree with this. What would the alternate plan be? Draft better? Make better trades? Force free agents to pick Toronto? Not sure how any of that could be accomplished.

                          Two years after the fact it is usually possible to see draft picks that would have turned out better, but also you can usually see draft picks that turned out worse for teams drafting ahead of the Raps and immediately behind. The draft is an art, not a science.

                          Make better trades? I don't know why people think BC isn't trying to make the best trades he can. It takes two to do that dance. We have seen what happens when the Raps chase free agents. If somebody knows better free agents that are willing to come to TO, then let me know and I will give Bryan a call.

                          So what's the alternate plan?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Puffer wrote: View Post
                            I agree with this. What would the alternate plan be? Draft better? Make better trades? Force free agents to pick Toronto? Not sure how any of that could be accomplished.

                            Two years after the fact it is usually possible to see draft picks that would have turned out better, but also you can usually see draft picks that turned out worse for teams drafting ahead of the Raps and immediately behind. The draft is an art, not a science.

                            Make better trades? I don't know why people think BC isn't trying to make the best trades he can. It takes two to do that dance. We have seen what happens when the Raps chase free agents. If somebody knows better free agents that are willing to come to TO, then let me know and I will give Bryan a call.

                            So what's the alternate plan?
                            Reflects my thoughts exactly.
                            On a lighter note, heres a sweet vid.. didn't know where else to put it

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              I'm not entirely sure what your proposed plan would be, in place of the one that BC is currently following. Drafting Durant can't really be called a strategy, so much as dumb luck. The Raps can keep tanking, but at some point they need to attempt to improve and actually start winning (I was on the pro-tank side this past season, in the hopes of getting somebody better than Ross, but I am definitely on the pro-winning side going into this season).

                              The Raptors have gone away from the stop-gap free agent signings that plagued the Bosh-era Raptors, have shed all their bad contracts (ie: Turkoglu) and have made lottery picks for 4 straight years that were widely regarded as BPA type picks (DeRozan, Davis, Valanciunas and Ross). It seems to me like BC is doing everything possible to build a solid, much improved team. I'm not sure how that can't be perceived as anything but a step forward.
                              First off let me state that OKC was only an example to make a comparison. And I'll add what Presti did in OKC is immensely more complex and long term than "drafting Durant". That he got his Durant (ie. his first stud) made it work to near perfection - but lets not try to simplify 4 or 5 years of rebuilding into one action.

                              Anyways to the point, while you may be on the 'pro-winning' side, I'm on the 'pro-having long term success' side or the 'pro-not recycling the same process every 5 years' side. Whether that means winning or losing now or in the near future I don't really care.

                              But looking at this team it looks to me more like the 'cross my fingers and hope my plan works' team. Bargnani and Demar have shown no consistency. Val and Ross haven't played a minute in the NBA yet. Thats 4 of the 5 most significant long term peices on this team. The Raptors record or position in the standings won't necessarily mean much if its not built on actual on the court talent.

                              The 2006/07 Raptors won 47 games, were ranked 3rd in the east, and took that so called 'step forward' - the following year 41 games, the years after out of the playoffs. Why? The ceiling was low and their success was built on the weakness of the east not the strength of their team. As the east got better, and the 'potential' of their players started leveling out, they were exposed.

                              I see the Raptors finishing somewhere between 7th and 11th. But honestly I'm more concerned with how they get there than where they are. So just using those two end points - if they are 7th and we are still questioning Bargnani and Demar while needing to make excuses for Ross and Val I don't see that as a step forward. If they are 11th and one or more have stood out I'll see that as progress.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                "So what's the alternate plan?"

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