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Debate question. DeMar or Amir?

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  • Debate question. DeMar or Amir?

    I know they play different positions so its hard to compare their games, but who do you see as the better all around player between the 2, DeMar or Amir? And who is needed more for the raptors success?

  • #2
    DeMar all day

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm just gonna answer that by quoting what I wrote in another thread:
      tkfu wrote: View Post
      DeMar's a low efficiency1 volume shooter2 with no 3 point range3 who never passes4, plays mediocre to bad defense5, and is a stunningly awful rebounder6 for his size and athleticism. But because his scoring totals look good and he throws down the occasional eye-popping dunk, his market value is probably significantly higher than his actual value.

      Footnotes:

      1. His TS% of 50.3% was 54th out of the 83 shooting guards who played at least 6 minutes per game last season.
      2. His usage rate of 22.5% was 10th out of that same group.
      3. He's a career 20.6% 3PT shooter, with his best season being last year's 26.1%
      4. 71st out of 83 shooting guards in assist rate.
      5. Career defensive rating of 112 (meaning a team full of defenders of his quality would allow 112 points per 100 possessions; the worst team in the league last year allowed 107.)
      6. 51st last season in rebound rate out of the 83 SGs who played at least 6 minutes per game.
      As for Amir, he's a very high-efficiency scorer (though at a low usage rate), and an exceptionally effective defender. Adjusted plus-minus has him as our best overall player over the last two years, if you like to go by numbers. Duane Casey has called him our most effective defender and our best pick and roll player (this was last year before Jonas arrived), if you don't like numbers and prefer to defer to the experts. The only people who don't get Amir's value are folks that don't watch a lot of Raptor basketball, and fans that can't see past per-game totals in the box score.

      Comment


      • #4
        tkfu wrote: View Post
        I'm just gonna answer that by quoting what I wrote in another thread:


        As for Amir, he's a very high-efficiency scorer (though at a low usage rate), and an exceptionally effective defender. Adjusted plus-minus has him as our best overall player over the last two years, if you like to go by numbers. Duane Casey has called him our most effective defender and our best pick and roll player (this was last year before Jonas arrived), if you don't like numbers and prefer to defer to the experts. The only people who don't get Amir's value are folks that don't watch a lot of Raptor basketball, and fans that can't see past per-game totals in the box score.
        Demar can easily be more of the impact player when he's consistently attacking the basket, getting in the passing lanes, and rebounding. He's shown more of that this pre-season, and he still has a good amount of potential left.

        Amir is a 'what-you-see, is what-you-get' guy. Rebounding, defending, garbage buckets. Amir rarely does anything wrong, but he (as well as Demar), is fairly inconsistent.

        Whenever Amir is inconsistent or ineffective, it doesn't have a huge premium on the game if it were Demar be ineffective. Just my eye.

        One question I would rather ask is, if one had an open position to start, who would it be? I would answer with Demar, for he is the closest to a "star" player (Not implying at all Demar is a star) we have.
        Twitter: @ReubenJRD NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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        • #5
          RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
          Demar can easily be more of the impact player when he's consistently attacking the basket, getting in the passing lanes, and rebounding. He's shown more of that this pre-season, and he still has a good amount of potential left.

          Amir is a 'what-you-see, is what-you-get' guy. Rebounding, defending, garbage buckets. Amir rarely does anything wrong, but he (as well as Demar), is fairly inconsistent.

          Whenever Amir is inconsistent or ineffective, it doesn't have a huge premium on the game if it were Demar be ineffective. Just my eye.
          First of all, basketball has three parts: offense, defense, and rebounding. Rebounding and defending are two thirds of the game of basketball, and Amir's very good at them.

          Second, Amir's not inconsistent on D, he's consistently excellent.

          Third, as I said above, Amir's a really good pick and roll player. It may not look as pretty to the casual fan as a spinning fadeaway jumper, but it's effective, and that's what matters. The Raptors' offense has been better with him on the court than it has with either Bargnani or DeRozan on the court for the past three years. (Via 82games.com.)

          And fourth, I agree that DeRozan's been good for three out of the four preseason games we've played so far this year. But based on how awful he's been the entire rest of his career (see footnotes above), I'm gonna need a lot bigger sample size than that before I believe he's any different from the DeMar we've seen for the first three seasons.

          Comment


          • #6
            RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
            Whenever Amir is inconsistent or ineffective, it doesn't have a huge premium on the game if it were Demar be ineffective. Just my eye.
            This is something I wanted to address separately. Our eyes lie to us all the time, and our brains are prone to massive distortions of memory. There are 10 players in more-or-less constant motion on the basketball court at all times; at best one can pay close attention to two or three of them at a time. Amir's a guy who does all the things you don't notice, and does them amazingly well. DeMar's a guy whose good plays you remember and whose bad plays you forget.

            Comment


            • #7
              tkfu wrote: View Post
              This is something I wanted to address separately. Our eyes lie to us all the time, and our brains are prone to massive distortions of memory. There are 10 players in more-or-less constant motion on the basketball court at all times; at best one can pay close attention to two or three of them at a time. Amir's a guy who does all the things you don't notice, and does them amazingly well. DeMar's a guy whose good plays you remember and whose bad plays you forget.
              And that's WHEN they ARE being effective in the game. Amir does the little things that don't show up on the stat sheet, but it's fairly noticeable when you are watching. Defending the ball, the pick and roll, etc. I'm talking about it's less noticeable to see a guy like Amir being ineffective compared to Demar being ineffective.
              Twitter: @ReubenJRD NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

              Comment


              • #8
                tkfu wrote: View Post
                First of all, basketball has three parts: offense, defense, and rebounding. Rebounding and defending are two thirds of the game of basketball, and Amir's very good at them.

                Second, Amir's not inconsistent on D, he's consistently excellent.

                Third, as I said above, Amir's a really good pick and roll player. It may not look as pretty to the casual fan as a spinning fadeaway jumper, but it's effective, and that's what matters. The Raptors' offense has been better with him on the court than it has with either Bargnani or DeRozan on the court for the past three years. (Via 82games.com.)

                And fourth, I agree that DeRozan's been good for three out of the four preseason games we've played so far this year. But based on how awful he's been the entire rest of his career (see footnotes above), I'm gonna need a lot bigger sample size than that before I believe he's any different from the DeMar we've seen for the first three seasons.
                I don't think Toronto could win with Amir more than with Andrea and Demar. I seriously doubt that, and that's why stats don't tell the whole story. Amir plays harder, great effort, and I'm not knocking Amir, for he is a serious contributor to the team, but, him being offensively better statistically wise, doesn't mean the team will get results with him over Andrea, or Demar.

                Secondly, Amir has been inconsistent, not defensively, but near everything else. He had the nagging injuries, offensively he was invisible, the effort was high and low, etc. I didn't see the Amir from the first two seasons in Toronto, compared to last season.

                Third, you're speaking as if you were using my eyes. I know what I see, and I know what Amir brings to the table, I can see what he does. I'm speaking to the ineffectiveness comparison, and how NOTICEABLE it would be compared to Demar and Amir. Amir would be far less noticeable if he were ineffective compared to if Demar was ineffective. I feel Demar has more of an impact on the game it self, that's why I felt Demar would be more noticeable. If Demar isn't scoring, if he isn't getting to the rim, if he isn't playing D, if he isn't rebounding, etc. It would have more of an impact on the game (negatively) for he is a starter, our number 1 option on the wing, and our best slasher/athlete.

                Fourth, Demar has NOT been awful his entire career, and that's from WATCHING what he does. A very solid rookie campaign, who did the little things that Amir would do, but on the wing. Running the floor, passing lanes defensively, basket cuts. His sophomore season was great, the year he made the jump. Going from 9 points per game, to 17 points per game, not to mention he was efficient, in both years. Rookie: 50%. Sophomore: 47% (taking more shots per game).
                I felt the only year where he was disappointing, was last season. Everything (PPG, RPG, SPG), dropped. He did improve the 3 point percentages from 10% to 26%, but, the lockout season really hurt him, especially with better/new habits to adapt and learn to.
                Twitter: @ReubenJRD NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think the better phrasing of the OP should have been around "who is the more valuable to the Raptors".

                  I dont mean to be a fence sitter but imo they are of equal value. They contribute in different ways as has been described above without depicting major separation in that overall individual value.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Bendit wrote: View Post
                    I think the better phrasing of the OP should have been around "who is the more valuable to the Raptors".

                    I dont mean to be a fence sitter but imo they are of equal value. They contribute in different ways as has been described above without depicting major separation in that overall individual value.
                    Interesting. I kind of agree with this, but if both do different things, and are of equal value, that you have to go with, who can get better at it?
                    Twitter: @ReubenJRD NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Inefficient wings are a dime a dozen.

                      Bigs who hustle, find ways to score without plays drawn up, rebound, and defend are rare.

                      Gotta go with Amir for the simple fact of supply versus demand.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        Inefficient wings are a dime a dozen.

                        Bigs who hustle, find ways to score without plays drawn up, rebound, and defend are rare.

                        Gotta go with Amir for the simple fact of supply versus demand.

                        Exactly

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          tkfu wrote: View Post
                          First of all, basketball has three parts: offense, defense, and rebounding. Rebounding and defending are two thirds of the game of basketball, and Amir's very good at them.

                          Second, Amir's not inconsistent on D, he's consistently excellent.

                          Third, as I said above, Amir's a really good pick and roll player. It may not look as pretty to the casual fan as a spinning fadeaway jumper, but it's effective, and that's what matters. The Raptors' offense has been better with him on the court than it has with either Bargnani or DeRozan on the court for the past three years. (Via 82games.com.)
                          Ok...First....Amir is very good at those 2 parts, but only in certain aspects of each. He's still a bit weak under the boards and gets physically overmatched.

                          Second...addressing D. Amir has looked good on D, but he's far from consistently excellent. He has lapses just like anyone. Who knows for this year, but he still might pick up more weak fouls than anyone else on our team. I don't know how many times I've screamed "Stop reaching Amir!" at games.

                          Third...Amir is a good roller. NOt a really good pick and roll player. HE has improved his jump shot, to make him better if he needs to pop. He dives well and finishes as long as he gets teh ball at the basket. BUT, that's about all he can do on offense. I don't know if I ever get as scared watching teh Raps as when Amir tries to dribble-drive or back down his man...Sometimes it works, every other time it's a total fail, usually of the turnover variety. So lets not overvalue that he's a good roller he's been the beneficiary of fairly good PG play...lets not forget how much less he got those opportunities with Bayless out there (it was always Jose with the sweet pass to him) the last couple of years. So if you're going to give Amir credit, don't overdo it. He's also still pretty bad if the pass comes too soon and he can't go straight up.

                          I'd take Demar. The choice is between a borderline starting wing who can easily grown into a legit starter, or a 3rd/4th big who is a good rotation player. Really, I'd expect Demar's D to keep improving, though he may never be a stopper (not like Amir is). And if he becomes better at one or two more aspects of the game (shooting, rebounding, passing, playing the post, the p'n'r), then he's definitely starting material. Amir is limited, and often gets credited with doing "all the little things you don't see", when really he does some things you do see and you overvalue them. He jumps for one loose ball and everyone says "he showed more hustle than anyone on the team", without paying attention to how much harder other guys might be moving on D to create that loose ball. I love Amir, but he's nothing special. He's a JYD type player, and JYD was pretty dumb on the floor a lot of nights. I'd give up Amir in a heartbeat for a more consistent, well-rounded backup like Taj Gibson, or Udonis Haslem, or Varejao, or Kenneth Faried, or......these guys are all upgrades who fill pretty much the same role. Heck, if Ed Davis gets his post game together enough, Amir will lose most of his minutes at PF and just be the backup C. To get a clear upgrade on Demar, you pretty much have to go all-star or borderline all-star. I wouldn't take guys like Kevin Martin, or Courtney Lee, or Wesley Matthews, or Rodney Stuckey, or Nick Young...You'd have to get at least a guy like Rudy Gay (and even then with his price tag, he'd better be having a monster season), or Luol Deng...basically either upgrading raw talent, or getting a player with a better all-around game, or both.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            Ok...First....Amir is very good at those 2 parts, but only in certain aspects of each. He's still a bit weak under the boards and gets physically overmatched.

                            Second...addressing D. Amir has looked good on D, but he's far from consistently excellent. He has lapses just like anyone. Who knows for this year, but he still might pick up more weak fouls than anyone else on our team. I don't know how many times I've screamed "Stop reaching Amir!" at games.

                            Third...Amir is a good roller. NOt a really good pick and roll player. HE has improved his jump shot, to make him better if he needs to pop. He dives well and finishes as long as he gets teh ball at the basket. BUT, that's about all he can do on offense. I don't know if I ever get as scared watching teh Raps as when Amir tries to dribble-drive or back down his man...Sometimes it works, every other time it's a total fail, usually of the turnover variety. So lets not overvalue that he's a good roller he's been the beneficiary of fairly good PG play...lets not forget how much less he got those opportunities with Bayless out there (it was always Jose with the sweet pass to him) the last couple of years. So if you're going to give Amir credit, don't overdo it. He's also still pretty bad if the pass comes too soon and he can't go straight up.

                            I'd take Demar. The choice is between a borderline starting wing who can easily grown into a legit starter, or a 3rd/4th big who is a good rotation player. Really, I'd expect Demar's D to keep improving, though he may never be a stopper (not like Amir is). And if he becomes better at one or two more aspects of the game (shooting, rebounding, passing, playing the post, the p'n'r), then he's definitely starting material. Amir is limited, and often gets credited with doing "all the little things you don't see", when really he does some things you do see and you overvalue them. He jumps for one loose ball and everyone says "he showed more hustle than anyone on the team", without paying attention to how much harder other guys might be moving on D to create that loose ball. I love Amir, but he's nothing special. He's a JYD type player, and JYD was pretty dumb on the floor a lot of nights. I'd give up Amir in a heartbeat for a more consistent, well-rounded backup like Taj Gibson, or Udonis Haslem, or Varejao, or Kenneth Faried, or......these guys are all upgrades who fill pretty much the same role. Heck, if Ed Davis gets his post game together enough, Amir will lose most of his minutes at PF and just be the backup C. To get a clear upgrade on Demar, you pretty much have to go all-star or borderline all-star. I wouldn't take guys like Kevin Martin, or Courtney Lee, or Wesley Matthews, or Rodney Stuckey, or Nick Young...You'd have to get at least a guy like Rudy Gay (and even then with his price tag, he'd better be having a monster season), or Luol Deng...basically either upgrading raw talent, or getting a player with a better all-around game, or both.
                            Demar is worse than all those guys you mentioned except maybe Nick Young. The guy is one dimensional and not very good at that either. Amir is decent at all aspects in the game and is overall a better player.

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                            • #15
                              no bad intentions here.. but questions like this just generate divisions & hate among the fanbase & team indirectly. no reason to name names specially on the same/our team. you can just ask a general question like who would u take a blue collar hustle role player vs an unproven impact/star potential player. Unless you are comparing 2 players who plays the same position have almost the same skillset.
                              Last edited by xunknownx; Sat Oct 20th, 2012, 04:22 PM.

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