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Debate question. DeMar or Amir?

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  • #16
    A different way to phrase it might be to say "Who do you think is better than average at their respective position, Amir or Demar?"

    Then go look at points, turnovers, rebounds and assist averages, and compare the two players. Then look at offensive and defensive efficiency stats, compared to averages.

    Quite frankly, I think Amir would come out on top if I had the energy to look. Especially considering that at this point, you must compare DeMar to starters, and Amir to bigs off the bench.

    I just checked Hollingers numbers. DeMar ranks 43rd as a shooting guard, and Amir 42 as a power forward. If you assume there are 30 starters in the league ahead of Amir, he is 12th best of the bench PF, whereas Demar has 12 bench SG's ahead of him.

    Those numbers are based on the 2011-2012 seson.

    Go back a year further, 'cause Demar had a bad year, and Amir is ranked 24th among PF's and Demar is ranked 23rd. So, was Amir a starter in 2010-2011? As I recall, he was. So 2010 - 2011 is a wash.

    Make of it what you will. I would say DeMar has a lot of ground to cover and it is also obvious how much his game depends on having someone like AB to spread the floor. Given that both AB and JV will be on the floor at the same time most of this year, DeMar should be able to find all kinds of open space to operate once he and JV figure out how to keep out of each others way.

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    • #17
      xunknownx wrote: View Post
      no bad intentions here.. but questions like this just generate divisions & hate among the fanbase & team indirectly. no reason to name names specially on the same/our team. you can just ask a general question like who would u take a blue collar hustle role player vs an unproven impact/star potential player. Unless you are comparing 2 players who plays the same position have almost the same skillset.
      I sort of agree....and I'm not trying to foster hate. In fact, my answer was mostly to point out exactly what you are saying the question is in its essence. And really, I wouldn't trade either one. I love Amir and don't strictly think he's "expendable", but that he's not particularly special(solid rotation big, ideally backup)...Amir's deal is reasonable for what he brings...you'd either have to draft someone like him straight out, or overpay more for them. To this day it might be the most intelligent deal BC has done.
      Demar is on a rookie deal....I keep hearing all this chatter about throwing him this way and that as packages....the only ones that seem to make sense talent-wise are Gay, Deng and Granger....all make much more money...only Gay is truly attractive as a scoring upgrade and better all-around player...but even then, you'd probably have to give up Demar, Ed/Amir, Jose, one or two 1st rounders...and who knows what else. That's a steep price if Demar's still got room to grow. There are plenty of inefficient wings out there...but do you want to be on the books for 10-15 million even for guys like Turkoglu or Kevin Martin? We're getting good value for Demar, and again, if he grows a bit I think you can lock down a starter at a relatively low cost. He has the potential to have a much higher impact on games than Amir ever will.

      I also think the impact of "hustle" players if overrated by a lot of Raps fans because we've had shitty teams. We sit there thinking "man, I wish all our guys played that hard"....but no one is really going to follow the example of a role player. For a hustle player to really make a difference, there's gotta be more than one, and i'd say at least 2 of the best 3 or 4 players on the team have to play like that. That's why I love that we drafted JV and traded for Lowry...I think these guys' personalities are really going to mesh well on the court, and that hopefully the team takes on their character.

      Also, the original question seemed to address which is the best "all-around" player. What the heck? All-around? Amir is not a good all-around player. He's not KG, he's JYD. He is very limited and plays to his strengths on both ends of the floor. This does not make him a good all-around player, it makes him an efficient/effective player. That just bugged me a bit. Maybe it should drop that part and just focus on the 2nd, "who matters more for team success?". In which case I'd still stick with Demar. Amir may impact games more consistently at this point by a bit, but when Demar does, it has a much larger effect.

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      • #18
        xunknownx wrote: View Post
        no bad intentions here.. but questions like this just generate divisions & hate among the fanbase & team indirectly. no reason to name names specially on the same/our team. you can just ask a general question like who would u take a blue collar hustle role player vs an unproven impact/star potential player. Unless you are comparing 2 players who plays the same position have almost the same skillset.
        I'll agree to this. The Bargs vs Bosh days had some folks furious on both sides around here, absolutely hating the other player. I myself fell into that trap a bit too, even though I never actually hate any of our players. Just want all of them to do great.

        FTR, i like Amir's game better, but I think if DeMar pans out he's a lot more crucial to our success. Don't see that happening.
        The Double Champ is here!
        Dynasty King: RRNBADLS7
        Raptors: Larry O'Brien

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        • #19
          Amir is more valuable to the team than Demar on my humble opinion.

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          • #20
            This isnt even close .. Im frankly shocked at how many people are making the case for Amir with a straight face. Amir is a nice role player .. who isnt really asked to do much, other than hustle, rebound, get the odd garbage points. He is pretty much always (maybe not when we had Reggie Evans) the 5th option on offense.
            In that context .. he is a faiirly efficient offensive player. In the context where he would be asked to actually contribute on offense and make his own shot, he would be very inefficient (much worse than Demar).
            On D - hes ok in the team concept, but not a great one on one defender (maybe a little better than Demar, but not much.
            Bottom line, hes hit his celing, which is a hustle guy, 6-8th in the rotation on an ok team. (Which btw is totally fine, teams need guys like that)
            However, Demar - can create his own shot. As shown this year, he can get to the hoop and get fouled. All of this, when he is being asked to be the man, the 1st or 2nd option on offense. I agree, hes a volume shooter, doesnt shoot a good percentage and needs to work on his J. So yes, compared to other great shooting guards (ie Wade, Kobe etc), obviously hes way way behind. But when compared to a career role guy like Amir .. its not even close

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            • #21
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              Inefficient wings are a dime a dozen.

              Bigs who hustle, find ways to score without plays drawn up, rebound, and defend are rare.

              Gotta go with Amir for the simple fact of supply versus demand.
              Not so sure about that. Think of our team alone over the last few years (let alone across the rest of the league) .. plenty of hustle guys who cant create their own shot (and thus score primarily on garbage points), but are solid rebounders / defenders.. Ed, Reggie, Hump, JYD, Keon Clark, Antonio, Oak .. just to name a few off the top of my head. There are dozens of guys across the league who fit Amir's profile (and a paid less!) .. so Im not buying the supply / demand argument here (in addition to the other reasons why I would take DD over Amir).

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              • #22
                Amir!

                If I had to start a team and had to choose between one of them I'd take Amir. He plays D,has heart and hussles all game long. Things that can't be taught. Will he win you games on his own... No. But neither will DD. He's proven that. Team game. Team players.

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                • #23
                  mountio wrote: View Post
                  Not so sure about that. Think of our team alone over the last few years (let alone across the rest of the league) .. plenty of hustle guys who cant create their own shot (and thus score primarily on garbage points), but are solid rebounders / defenders.. Ed, Reggie, Hump, JYD, Keon Clark, Antonio, Oak .. just to name a few off the top of my head. There are dozens of guys across the league who fit Amir's profile (and a paid less!) .. so Im not buying the supply / demand argument here (in addition to the other reasons why I would take DD over Amir).
                  IF we are talking about ceiling and potential, then there is no doubt DD has more upside.

                  But I thought we were talking about the here and now. I still say Amir. Amir is good at what he is asked to do. DeMar in 3 years has not been doing what he has been asked to do and has been becoming worse at it. Maybe this year he breaks out but I have little faith in that happening. Also he is one dimensional - and inefficient at that.

                  I once went through the contracts of guys in the league getting paid in the ball park of Amir and it was frightening. There are definitely guys in the league who fit Amir's profile (and are paid less) but I would venture to guess they are on rookie deals. Go to HoopsWorld.com and look through the team salaries and eliminate the rookie contracts. It is incredible to see who is paid what for what they produce.

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                  • #24
                    The way for a team to get better is to improve at each position, if possible.

                    DD has the role of starting SG. With DeMar ranked 42nd or 43rd in the league as a shooting guard, it is much easier to improve there. Getting someone who is ranked 32nd is an improvement.

                    AJ has the role of first big off the bench. If he is 42nd or 43rd best in the league, then there are only 12 bench bigs who are better than him. What else is there to say?

                    If the Raptors players, in each role, were 12th to 15th best in their role, the team would be awesome. Right now, only Lowry (10th), Jose (24th, therefore highly ranked for a bench pg), Linas Kleiza (34th, therefore good for a bench SF) Amir (42nd, good for a bench PF) fit that profile.

                    You get rid of Amir only if you have a better fit at bench PF or can dramatically improve one of the spots you are lagging at.
                    He is 12th best at what he is asked to do, play big off the bench. Demar is 48th best at what he is asked to do.

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                    • #25
                      Puffer wrote: View Post
                      The way for a team to get better is to improve at each position, if possible.

                      DD has the role of starting SG. With DeMar ranked 42nd or 43rd in the league as a shooting guard, it is much easier to improve there. Getting someone who is ranked 32nd is an improvement.

                      AJ has the role of first big off the bench. If he is 42nd or 43rd best in the league, then there are only 12 bench bigs who are better than him. What else is there to say?

                      If the Raptors players, in each role, were 12th to 15th best in their role, the team would be awesome. Right now, only Lowry (10th), Jose (24th, therefore highly ranked for a bench pg), Linas Kleiza (34th, therefore good for a bench SF) Amir (42nd, good for a bench PF) fit that profile.

                      You get rid of Amir only if you have a better fit at bench PF or can dramatically improve one of the spots you are lagging at.
                      He is 12th best at what he is asked to do, play big off the bench. Demar is 48th best at what he is asked to do.
                      I have to say .. this is pretty horrible logic. According to you, bring Demar in off the bench, and start Amir and all of a sudden Demar is great and Amir sucks? Because, according to you, Demar demar would now be the 12 best bench SG, yet Amir would now suck, because there are 40 or so better starting PFs?
                      Combine the fact that Demar makes less money .. now im thoroughly confused.

                      If you want to use these rankings (not sure what ranking you are using), thats fine. But you cant adjust for a starter vs a bench player ... if guys are good enough, they will start, if they arent, they wont. As I said, it would be fair game to adjust for salary and say that the lower paid player with the same ranking at their position is more valuable to their team .. but again, that would be DD.

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                      • #26
                        Last sentence in the original post was "And who is needed more for the raptors success?"

                        My whole argument is that you need players who are good in their role for success. Amir is only expected to come off the bench. In that role, he is a good choice. DeMar is expected to be a starting SG. In that role, last year, he was worse than 42 other SGs. For the Raptors to succeed, you don't need a guy playing SG who has 12 bench warmers showing him up.

                        I know it's simple logic, and you can make arguments about how DeMar was expected to shoulder more off the scoring load last year etc. etc. but the point is that he is not good at doing what he is asked to do. Change his role or move him...or give him another chance, but demand a significant improvement this year.

                        In another thread I have also said that I expect having a healthy AB and JV on the floor at the same time (along with Lowry) and DeMar will have a much easier time of it. But he is still not very good at what he is asked to do.

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                        • #27
                          Puffer wrote: View Post
                          Last sentence in the original post was "And who is needed more for the raptors success?"

                          My whole argument is that you need players who are good in their role for success. Amir is only expected to come off the bench. In that role, he is a good choice. DeMar is expected to be a starting SG. In that role, last year, he was worse than 42 other SGs. For the Raptors to succeed, you don't need a guy playing SG who has 12 bench warmers showing him up.

                          I know it's simple logic, and you can make arguments about how DeMar was expected to shoulder more off the scoring load last year etc. etc. but the point is that he is not good at doing what he is asked to do. Change his role or move him...or give him another chance, but demand a significant improvement this year.

                          In another thread I have also said that I expect having a healthy AB and JV on the floor at the same time (along with Lowry) and DeMar will have a much easier time of it. But he is still not very good at what he is asked to do.
                          Ok .. I get the argument you are trying .. but its totally flawed if you just stick guys in as "bench players" or "starters". You need to think of them by position, and then the argument is ok. Amir gets the benefit of the doubt because he happens to be the third shittiest PF we have. But, if AB or JV get hurt, then all of a sudden his value has gone down? It just doesnt make sense.

                          By your logic, Jose is our best asset (because, as a backup PG, he is the best we have, relative to his peers at backup PG). In reality, he is one of our worst assets, because he gets paid $10 mm+ to be a backup PG. Amir would be close to next worst, because he gets paid $6 mm + to be a backup PF.

                          I get (and agree with) the overriding point that you need a bunch of players who are good at their collective roles in order to have a successful team - but your way of evaluating if way off.

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                          • #28
                            yeah im going with what matt said
                            @sweatpantsjer

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                            • #29
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              IF we are talking about ceiling and potential, then there is no doubt DD has more upside.

                              But I thought we were talking about the here and now. I still say Amir. Amir is good at what he is asked to do. DeMar in 3 years has not been doing what he has been asked to do and has been becoming worse at it. Maybe this year he breaks out but I have little faith in that happening. Also he is one dimensional - and inefficient at that.
                              Amir does a lot of things well enough. He is a low-usage (and relatively low minutes) player because I suspect his efficiency on both sides of the court would decline more than just marginally if he was playing 30+ minutes a game.

                              I am very happy we have someone as good as Amir as a third big.

                              DeMar is a scorer first, second, and third. DeMar needs to add another skill to his game sooner rather than later if he wants to remain a starter. This is a critical year for DeMar and may be his last year as a Raptor starter. I hope they don't extend him before October 31st because right now, I would be very hesitant to project him as anything other than a scorer off the bench.

                              I am not a big fan of DeMar as a player but I think his parents and grandmother did a fantastic job raising him. I hope he develops another skill because he is a very good young man.

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                              • #30
                                Here's reason enough why Amir needs to go. The safety of mankind rests on this decision.

                                http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2...ronto_raptors/

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