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aren't we stuck in mediocrity?

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  • #76
    Bendit wrote: View Post
    Re Miami, Chalmers thinks he is better than Rondo...LOL. Not that I believe so. But, referring to Lark's posts please dont say that Lowry would go to Miami at this stage of his career for Ray Allen type money. Cause that's what he would have to do. And why would Miami give up on Chalmers/get a Lowry for much more money if they already won with Chalmers.

    ps...I'll try and find the Chalmers is better than Rondo interview if someone insists!

    I admit I missed Chalmers but I stand by the point I was making...and Puffer as well

    Miami as we all know is a special team who doesnt use the conventional PG at all times. Lebron plays it much in crunch time.
    chalmers is a bum. i was just dropping the pg on the team. i think it will actually be impossible for lowry to sign there and not sure but might also be impossible to sign and trade to miami as well.

    i think that lark is trying to be the voice of reason on the excitement we all have right now but his arguments are coming off more negative then he is intending.

    i don't agree that mediocre is all this team is capable of because it really does look like we have a player in jv. i think that demar has panned out as well as he is going to and if he can constantly attack from the low post or go at the rim he is a fine player.

    i also stated in another thread that what this team is doing is building a team not building around one player. casey asked for specific skill sets in players and colangelo got them. now they need to implement team philosophies. if/when demar leaves it isn't because we couldn't keep him, it will be because we don't want to.

    letting him walk for nothing or sign and trade for minor assets is better for our team now then signing him because we have no other options. that is team building.

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    • #77
      Bendit wrote: View Post
      But, referring to Lark's posts please dont say that Lowry would go to Miami at this stage of his career for Ray Allen type money. Cause that's what he would have to do. And why would Miami give up on Chalmers/get a Lowry for much more money if they already won with Chalmers.
      I'm not saying that he'd sign for less money in Miami. I was just answering the question put to me. I'd be shocked if he did that. But let me ask you this: if the Raps miss the playoffs this year then barely squeak in next year and get stomped in the first round, what's Lowry's incentive to stay?

      And just as an aside, because I was surprised by the results, I went back and looked at the list of recent champs and finals losers. Here's the starting point guard on some of the recent ones:

      Dallas with old Kidd
      Miami with Chalmers
      LA with Fisher
      Boston with young Rondo (good, but top 8? I'd have to go back and look but I doubt it)
      Cleveland with Mo Williams
      San Antonio with young Parker (see Rondo comment)
      Dallas with Devin Harris
      The Heat for the first championship, though you could argue Wade was the PG a lot

      That's just the last 10 years, and it's the majority. There's a bumper crop of talented young point guards in today's league but you don't need a top PG to win in the NBA.

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      • #78
        Lark Benson wrote: View Post
        That's just the last 10 years, and it's the majority. There's a bumper crop of talented young point guards in today's league but you don't need a top PG to win in the NBA.
        More so you need a great wing/post player. At the end of the day, until we start seeing consistent teams with great point guards winning championships, your point guard, as the #1 option won't necessarily result success. For his job is to get the ball TO the #1 option and so forth.
        Twitter: @ReubenJRD NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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        • #79
          akashsingh wrote: View Post
          I dunno, maybe I think about it too much, and should get another hobby? what do you guys think.
          yes

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          • #80
            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
            1. Landry's poison pill absolutely matters. The expensive year of his contract is the year it might interfere with resigning Davis and Lowry. It's not the worst thing in the world, but in that year Bargs, Amir, Fields, as well as JV and Ross' rookie deals will take up half the cap.
            But after realising it the poison pill doesn't affect our cap:

            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
            And planetmars, you're right, forgot about that. But it's a difference of a few mil for cap purposes, and doesn't really change things much. It's still a lot of money for players that aren't going to take you very far wihout a franchise player for them to work around.
            Practising for a political career? Got the flip-flop down. Nice save to quickly insert another argument when it's being rebutted.

            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
            So dismiss my response with a 'whatever' and keep blindly believing the team can bust through mediocrity into the league's upper strata if you like, but until I see evidence that it can, I'm going to stay pessimistic.
            That's the problem with people that don't agree with you, they're all ignoring reality and are pretty darn stupid. They think we are going to be champions for the next 10 years. Well, guess what, we won't. You tell em! (building my own Aunt Sally here)

            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
            As for the 'all about winning' thing, that's all I've been hearing about him since he was traded here. That he's a bulldog, alpha competitor, hates to lose even in practice, etc. The Raps have two short years to prove to him that the team is headed in the right direction. But if Bargs and DD don't develop like everyone seems to assume they will, then where does that leave the team and why on earth would Lowry resign?
            We all, except for you, expect them to become allstars or something like that? What?

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            • #81
              i feel your pain son, but let us give this group a chance if by mid-season we don't see anything positive we can re-visit this topic.
              ~ Court Surfing ~

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              • #82
                Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                Practising for a political career? Got the flip-flop down. Nice save to quickly insert another argument when it's being rebutted.
                Seems like you missed the point too, because it's the exact same argument whether he's on the cap for 8.5 or 6.whatever. That's still a lot of money to be paying for a role player when your 'star' players don't provide good contract value and still need a lot of expensive help around them in order to compete. Good job focussing on the irrelevant 'flip-flop' instead of trying to find a hole in my argument though.

                Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                That's the problem with people that don't agree with you, they're all ignoring reality and are pretty darn stupid. They think we are going to be champions for the next 10 years. Well, guess what, we won't. You tell em! (building my own Aunt Sally here)
                If you're telling me that Bargs and DeRozan are suddenly going to develop into players capable of leading a team to the conference finals, then yeah, I consider that ignoring reality. And that's the entire premise of the thread, whether or not this team is going to be stuck on the mediocrity treadmill. So as far as I can tell, you're critisizing me for pointing out that the team's core has not in any way shown it's capable of leading the team even as far as the playoffs, and that believing they'll suddenly make the leap to genuine franchise players is blindly believing in something for which there is no evidence. Ok then.

                Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                We all, except for you, expect them to become allstars or something like that? What?
                Sigh. One more time just so we're clear: that's what would have to happen if this team were to NOT be stuck in mediocrity. Anyone in this thread arguing that the Raps won't be mediocre is arguing that either the team's existing players will consistently lead them deep into the playoffs or that they'll be traded for players who will, or that they'll play along franchise player X that the raps will somehow acquire. My argument is that if none of those scenarios play out, Lowry has no incentive to stay unless the Raps throw a ton of money at him.

                Frankly I don't get why you posted those replies at all. You completely ignored and made no attempt to test the validity of my argument, all you did was take jabs at me for disagreeing with people that think DD and Bargs are capable of leading a contending team.

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                • #83
                  Jermaine O'neil... I'll take this gradual build. Positive things happening in raptorland, young team, plenty of room to grow. I'll be very happy if we grab that 8th seed. Going in the right direction.

                  (meant as a reply to an earlier post re swinging for the fences and striking out)
                  Last edited by big boi; Sun Oct 28th, 2012, 01:58 PM.

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                  • #84
                    akashsingh wrote: View Post
                    I don't like your sentiments here because it's not even true. I know these teams are rare, but goddammit why can't we be one of those teams that catch fire in a bottle.

                    OKC - drafted durant, westbrook
                    BOS - Big 3 came together, before that they were a lottery team
                    LAK - They retool and take big risks every couple of years

                    Doesn't it feel like a rip-off to follow a franchise that won't take risks to obtain a higher level of talent. Im a go big or go home kind of guy.......
                    I'm glad you're not the GM. Of course fine to have an opinion, but swinging for the fences (go big) and striking out (go home) could be the death knell for this franchise. They need to prove they are a relevant team in this league, first and foremost.

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                    • #85
                      Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                      1. Landry's poison pill absolutely matters. The expensive year of his contract is the year it might interfere with resigning Davis and Lowry. It's not the worst thing in the world, but in that year Bargs, Amir, Fields, as well as JV and Ross' rookie deals will take up half the cap.

                      2. It absolutely matters if the Raps get nothing for DeRozan, because there's very little chance they can replace him with a player that will catapult the team into contention. As for overpaying, consider the lack of quality 2 guards in the league, the fact that market value in the NBA is tied closely to offensive production, and that there are a lot of teams out there who have a lot more money than NBA talent on their rosters. I can easilly see someone offering DD 9-10 mil per year based on untapped talent, especially if he plays well this year.

                      3. As for guaranteeing that Lowry will walk, I can't obviously - you're reading too much into a hastilly written post. But the only leverage the Raps have is an extra year on his next deal, and unless they're going to pony up a max contract, that hardly matters because another team can outbid them. So to me, the only way lowry stays is if the raps overpay or if the team shows enough growth that he wants to be a part of it going forward. As a guy who's all about winning, I would suspect he'd choose to partner with a real franchise player in pursuit of a championship over sticking with a treadmill team for another 4-5 years of first round playoff exits. But he might surprise me.

                      4. If you want to keep your expectations high, go ahead. But what's that got to do with the topic of this thread, which is whether the team is stuck in mediocrity? I'm presenting the reasons for my opinion that they are (or will be, once they reach mediocrity). I'm actually quite optimistic about this season and about the team's climb into relevancy, but that doesn't mean I'm crazy enough to see deep playoff runs in their future.

                      So dismiss my response with a 'whatever' and keep blindly believing the team can bust through mediocrity into the league's upper strata if you like, but until I see evidence that it can, I'm going to stay pessimistic.
                      Was this hastily written also?... whatever.

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                      • #86
                        Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                        Seems like you missed the point too, because it's the exact same argument whether he's on the cap for 8.5 or 6.whatever. That's still a lot of money to be paying for a role player when your 'star' players don't provide good contract value and still need a lot of expensive help around them in order to compete. Good job focussing on the irrelevant 'flip-flop' instead of trying to find a hole in my argument though.
                        First you said the poison pill absolutely matters in response to a remark that the poison pill doesn't matter for us. When you finally realise the poison pill really doesn't matter for us, you say that this doesn't make a difference. And apparently I missed the point ... Btw, first time I heard the term 'irrelevant flip-flop'; loving it.

                        Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                        Frankly I don't get why you posted those replies at all. You completely ignored and made no attempt to test the validity of my argument, all you did was take jabs at me for disagreeing with people that think DD and Bargs are capable of leading a contending team.
                        It's hard to test the validity of a flip-flopping condescending straw man creating argument. You are condescending because you urge the fanbase to temper their expectations and call people who disagree with you blind believers. You create a straw man by arguing that "everyone" expects Bargani and DeRozan to develop into something special and attack that supposed argument. I doubt there are many people on here who think that, let alone "everyone". This is why you get the deserved 'whatevers'.

                        I'm going to leave it at that. You can sigh all you want, but a little bit of introspection would go a long way.

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                        • #87
                          Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                          First you said the poison pill absolutely matters in response to a remark that the poison pill doesn't matter for us. When you finally realise the poison pill really doesn't matter for us, you say that this doesn't make a difference. And apparently I missed the point ... Btw, first time I heard the term 'irrelevant flip-flop'; loving it.

                          It's hard to test the validity of a flip-flopping condescending straw man creating argument. You are condescending because you urge the fanbase to temper their expectations and call people who disagree with you blind believers. You create a straw man by arguing that "everyone" expects Bargani and DeRozan to develop into something special and attack that supposed argument. I doubt there are many people on here who think that, let alone "everyone". This is why you get the deserved 'whatevers'.

                          I'm going to leave it at that. You can sigh all you want, but a little bit of introspection would go a long way.
                          I'm gonna ask this one more time: do you have anything in my argument you want to challenge other than semantics? Because you're still reading waaaaay too much into a few hastily chosen words instead of actually challenging my ideas.

                          As for the rest of your complaints, this isn't the happy friends forum. I don't give a shit whether you think I'm condescending. And what you consider a straw-man argument is nothing short of laughable since that would mean either a) that I literally meant everyone, which is absurdly literal or b) that despite racking up nearly 1k posts on these forums, you've somehow missed the enormous group of people that still believe Bargs and DD are destined for greatness and/or will lead the team to the playoffs this year by stepping up their games.

                          I still don't get why you felt the need to jump into a back and forth of which you weren't a part. As far as I can tell the only reason you did so was because you were pissy that someone was expressing negativity and apparently ruining your fun. Given that, the irony of your last sentence is just too appropriate. Just replace 'sigh' with 'whatever'.

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                          • #88
                            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                            ...you're still reading waaaaay too much into a few hastily chosen words instead of actually challenging my ideas...And what you consider a straw-man argument is nothing short of laughable since that would mean either a) that I literally meant everyone, which is absurdly literal or b) that despite racking up nearly 1k posts on these forums, you've somehow missed the enormous group of people that still believe Bargs and DD are destined for greatness and/or will lead the team to the playoffs this year by stepping up their games...
                            Here's the thing Lark. Words have meanings. Since it is virtually impossible to convey intent with a raised eyebrow, when posting in a forum, the only think people can fall back on is your words. If you don't mean what you write, don't write it if you are trying to engage in a discussion. Of course, if you are just stirring the pot, have at it. A method of self-entertainment that has a long and illustrious tradition on the internet. If you are just stirring, then don't get pissy when people question your words.

                            And as for "...missed the enormous group of people that still believe Bargs and DD are destined for greatness..." if you can find more than a dozen of each who believe either are destined for greatness, I will be surprised. Actually, if you can find 6 who believe either of them is destined for greatness I will be surprised.

                            What I here most is people who think that neither have achieved their full potential. with Bargs, many believe that potential means close to All-Star status IF he can repeat the effort he put into last years magical 13 game stretch. If he can, he will certainly qualify on that score, given that each year 4 players are selected to be PF. His stats during that stretch would put him right there, with that group. As for DD, most people think that if he can achieve his potential, he could be something better than an average SG, say top 10 - 12 in the league. Don't believe there are many fans dusting off shelves in the Hall of Fame for DeMar's hardware.

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                            • #89
                              Puffer wrote: View Post
                              Here's the thing Lark. Words have meanings. Since it is virtually impossible to convey intent with a raised eyebrow, when posting in a forum, the only think people can fall back on is your words. If you don't mean what you write, don't write it if you are trying to engage in a discussion. Of course, if you are just stirring the pot, have at it. A method of self-entertainment that has a long and illustrious tradition on the internet. If you are just stirring, then don't get pissy when people question your words.
                              I'm not trying to say I didn't mean what I wrote. Not at all. But I've already explained that I forgot poison pill contracts are averaged over their term for cap purposes and how that fact fails to invalidate my argument. Despite that, he keeps harping on the fact that I 'flip-flopped', as if I'm not human and not entitled to make mistakes. All I'm asking is that he focus on my actual argument instead of pointing to this one mistake as proof that my reasoning is unsound.

                              Puffer wrote: View Post
                              And as for "...missed the enormous group of people that still believe Bargs and DD are destined for greatness..." if you can find more than a dozen of each who believe either are destined for greatness, I will be surprised. Actually, if you can find 6 who believe either of them is destined for greatness I will be surprised.

                              What I here most is people who think that neither have achieved their full potential. with Bargs, many believe that potential means close to All-Star status IF he can repeat the effort he put into last years magical 13 game stretch. If he can, he will certainly qualify on that score, given that each year 4 players are selected to be PF. His stats during that stretch would put him right there, with that group. As for DD, most people think that if he can achieve his potential, he could be something better than an average SG, say top 10 - 12 in the league. Don't believe there are many fans dusting off shelves in the Hall of Fame for DeMar's hardware.
                              Just as an irrelevant aside first, wouldn't you say that if Bargnani was named an all-star that he had achieved greatness? Is an all-star not great?

                              Second, there's a reason I included the 'and/or make the playoffs', which you conveniently left out. I totally get your point and it's very likely that I've exaggerated the number of people that think Bargs and DD can be 'great' players, but there is certainly no shortage of people that think the team can and will make the playoffs on the backs of DD and Bargs raising their games (not to say that would be the ONLY reason, obviously new additions will contribute). I'm not going to re-state how that ties back into my original argument that the Raps are likely to be in a bad spot cap-wise because I'm tired of re-explaining what I've already covered. But to me, if you believe that the Raps are going to be able to outpace the mediocrity treadmill, then you have to believe that DD and Bargs will improve, whether to provide value in their contracts, provide trade-bait, provide incentive for others to stay and/or sign with the team, or by simply outplaying the competition. I don't think such an improvement is likely, and apparently my cautioning against expecting it was what Soft Euro considered condescending.

                              Just to be clear, let's look at my original paragraph:
                              "As for the 'all about winning' thing, that's all I've been hearing about him since he was traded here. That he's a bulldog, alpha competitor, hates to lose even in practice, etc. The Raps have two short years to prove to him that the team is headed in the right direction. But if Bargs and DD don't develop like everyone seems to assume they will, then where does that leave the team and why on earth would Lowry resign?"

                              Now, take out the phrase 'like everyone seems to assume they will'. It changes literally nothing about my argument. That's what annoys me. He's not engaging in discussion, he's essentially just pointing out that I wrote the response at work without first taking a fine-toothed logic comb through it, and wrongly calling it a straw-man argument by focussing on an irrelevant phrase. It's pointless and does nothing to prove me wrong. So why bring it up?
                              Last edited by Lark Benson; Sun Oct 28th, 2012, 08:27 PM.

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                              • #90
                                Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                                ...Just to be clear, let's look at my original paragraph:
                                "As for the 'all about winning' thing, that's all I've been hearing about him since he was traded here. That he's a bulldog, alpha competitor, hates to lose even in practice, etc. The Raps have two short years to prove to him that the team is headed in the right direction. But if Bargs and DD don't develop like everyone seems to assume they will, then where does that leave the team and why on earth would Lowry resign?"

                                Now, take out the phrase 'like everyone seems to assume they will'. It changes literally nothing about my argument. That's what annoys me. He's not engaging in discussion, he's essentially just pointing out that I wrote the response at work without first taking a fine-toothed logic comb through it, and wrongly calling it a straw-man argument by focussing on an irrelevant phrase. It's pointless and does nothing to prove me wrong. So why bring it up?
                                Let's look at the section where you say "...The Raps have two short years to prove to him that the team is headed in the right direction. But if Bargs and DD don't develop like everyone seems to assume they will, then where does that leave the team and why on earth would Lowry resign?"

                                Presumably BC knew far more about Lowry's character than anyone here. That's part of his due diligence. Either he has reason to believe Lowry will resign, or he has contingency plans. Bargs and Derozan might grow. Or other members of the team may grow enough to force improvement. Or Lowry may improve enough that suddenly HE becomes the trade chip BC can use to bring in the wing player the Raps have been looking for. I mean there are a slew of possibilities. I think people are taking issue with your casual dismissal of the possibility of anything ever turning out right.

                                Lowry is quite good. JV could easily be a monster, it seems. Bargs is good, and apparently improving. The bench is deep in players that can easily mitigate against losing any one of the starters for 10 -15 games. That is a huge plus. Ross could turn out to be a player. The prognosis is good. You seemed to line up a bunch of the worst case scenarios and then proclaim that the Raps would be stuck in mediocrity because these worst case scenarios had a higher probability of occurring then any of the more positive ones.

                                I think that is what people take issue with. Only a few people here actively wearing blinders, but nobody likes a doom and gloom proponent :-)

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