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Has Bargnani Plateaued?

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  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    Beagle wrote: View Post
    I voted no because I see him do things that very few 7-footers ever do -- namely dribble-penetrate and finish with a soft lay-in against quality defenders. The problem is, he doesn't do this all that ofter. He seems to have the skill set, but not the drive. If he gets traded, I'd bet at least fifty dollars that some other coach would turn him into a weapon to be feared. In all history, only a select few guys of his size have had the same skills. He's not Dirk, but he could be just as good in his own way - similar, but not the same. He could totally screw up defenders with his dual ability to hit the outside (or mid-range) shot or, alternatively, pump fake and go to the hoop on one dribble. He needs better coaching.
    Even when his shot isn't dropping, bringing his defender out to the 3pt line would be opening up lanes for his teammates to drive, and his own drives or the double-teams he draws would open up teammates for wide open 3pt shots. The problem is that he doesn't have teammates who can consistently take advantage of the space he creates. DeRozan can't consistently penetrate and/or finish at the rim and nobody can consistently knock down open 3pt looks.

    Bargnani is what he is, for better or worse. However, if the Raptors added some legit scoring talent to the starting lineup, so that Bargnani became the #2 or #3 scoring option, while having a #4/#5 option who could bury open looks (like Anthony Parker, Carlos Delfino and Mo-Pete used to), then suddenly Bargnani wouldn't look so bad. Basically, if Lowry gets back from injury, DeRozan can consistently penetrate and finish, and Fields (or whoever starts at SF) can consistently bury open looks, and the 5-man unit has time to develop an on-court chemistry, I think Bargnani would look significantly better without even having to personally improve.

    Part of the problem is Bargnani's inconsistent hustle and hot/cold shooting, but part of the problem is a subpar starting lineup that forces Bargnani into the #1 scorer role.

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  • Nilanka
    replied
    Beagle wrote: View Post
    I voted no because I see him do things that very few 7-footers ever do -- namely dribble-penetrate and finish with a soft lay-in against quality defenders. The problem is, he doesn't do this all that ofter. He seems to have the skill set, but not the drive. If he gets traded, I'd bet at least fifty dollars that some other coach would turn him into a weapon to be feared. In all history, only a select few guys of his size have had the same skills. He's not Dirk, but he could be just as good in his own way - similar, but not the same. He could totally screw up defenders with his dual ability to hit the outside (or mid-range) shot or, alternatively, pump fake and go to the hoop on one dribble. He needs better coaching.
    Bargnani was doing everything you described in his rookie year. Not exactly evidence against plateauing.

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  • Beagle
    replied
    I voted no because I see him do things that very few 7-footers ever do -- namely dribble-penetrate and finish with a soft lay-in against quality defenders. The problem is, he doesn't do this all that ofter. He seems to have the skill set, but not the drive. If he gets traded, I'd bet at least fifty dollars that some other coach would turn him into a weapon to be feared. In all history, only a select few guys of his size have had the same skills. He's not Dirk, but he could be just as good in his own way - similar, but not the same. He could totally screw up defenders with his dual ability to hit the outside (or mid-range) shot or, alternatively, pump fake and go to the hoop on one dribble. He needs better coaching.

    Leave a comment:


  • ebrian
    replied
    My take on DeRozan is that he shouldn't be an NBA starter. Like you said, he is working on his game but when you don't come into the league possessing the basic fundamentals of your position, you're in trouble. To make matters worse he's on a bad team so he puts up decent enough stats in his first couple years to get away with it. Remember how he was working on a 3point shot last year, when he can barely dribble the ball?

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  • RAPresenting
    replied
    Letter N wrote: View Post
    Bargs is nothing like VC. VC's limitations were due to lack of effort and drive. Bargnani's limitations are due to his actual limitations.

    This is what he is, he's a tall guy with a pretty good shot, he's not an athlete, he doesn't have a high basketball IQ, he's not strong, he's not quick, he's not agile. He's just a 7 footer with a pretty good shot. That's the start and end of Andrea Bargnani.
    Ignorance at it's finest... Sorry ignorance or completely no knowledge of accessing athleticism. Must be trolling?

    Leave a comment:


  • wallz
    replied
    TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Even if it wasnt directed at me, ill answer it, hehehe.

    If you see your supposed face of the franchise getting away with not putting in 100% effort on both ends of the floor, what would that make you want to do? Again, human nature. Demar has seen throughout how the organization baby-ed Bargnani, of course, why would he exert maximum effort if he can get away with medium? His rebounding seems to have improved this season i give him that, so next year he'll try to improve his asts? then next next year his hustle and stealing the ball? and then the year after that his 3pt shot? I dont know bout you guys but i think by now he should have close to a complete game, considering the opportunities that the Raptors have given him. Id say maybe, maybe, maybe one more year.
    Good point. by the time he has all the tools to be a complete player, he'll be 35 with bum knees

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  • TheGloveinRapsUniform
    replied
    Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    What's your stance on DeRozan? Because he might become to me like Bargnani is to you.
    Even if it wasnt directed at me, ill answer it, hehehe.

    If you see your supposed face of the franchise getting away with not putting in 100% effort on both ends of the floor, what would that make you want to do? Again, human nature. Demar has seen throughout how the organization baby-ed Bargnani, of course, why would he exert maximum effort if he can get away with medium? His rebounding seems to have improved this season i give him that, so next year he'll try to improve his asts? then next next year his hustle and stealing the ball? and then the year after that his 3pt shot? I dont know bout you guys but i think by now he should have close to a complete game, considering the opportunities that the Raptors have given him. Id say maybe, maybe, maybe one more year.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheGloveinRapsUniform
    replied
    If we are referring to positive plateau meaning he's reached the pinnacle/best part of his career, I dont think he has plateaued and frankly, i dont think he ever will.
    If we are talking about negative plateau meaning this is the best he can be so lets live with it, then a resounding, YES.

    I do agree with Soft Euro's post, this is on the organization as much as it is on Bargnani. Sometimes the effort isnt there, but IMO, it was the team's responsibility to guide him in the right direction. Forcing him to be a center really messed him up, and now theyre putting him in the role of a 4 and expecting him to just excel right away. wont happen.

    He needs to go where the system fits his game, the Raptors need to stop making the system fit him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mediumcore
    replied
    If the breif stint of brilliance he showd last season was his apex, then what he's done thus far this season isn't so much a plateau as it is a decline. It's still really early in the season and his shot is already starting to round into form, but for me even if he could consistently give you 20+ points a game I would still rather see him moved for a traditional low post presence that can provide a good mix of scoring, rebounding and defence. For all the talk of how he creates mismatches it's never provided any true advantage for us on a consistent basis.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nilanka
    replied
    Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    What's your stance on DeRozan? Because he might become to me like Bargnani is to you.
    Not sure who this post was directed to, but I'm very quickly running out of patience with DeRozan as well.

    And to think, he'd still need another 3+ years to equal Bargnani's window of "development".

    Leave a comment:


  • Soft Euro
    replied
    What's your stance on DeRozan? Because he might become to me like Bargnani is to you.

    Leave a comment:


  • ebrian
    replied
    I think the sad truth to polls and threads like this is that there are people like me who had given up on Bargnani 3-4 years ago, and now in the 7th year of his career there's still some crazies out there who think there's more coming.

    I wonder if there are employees within the organization who pleaded with Colangelo not to sign Bargnani again after his rookie contract. I sure hope so. Otherwise there is no hope for this franchise..
    Last edited by ebrian; Mon Nov 12th, 2012, 01:50 PM.

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  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    I'm with Soft Euro, being in the minority who think that Bargnani can (and will) play at the 'good' level he played at last season. 3/5 players in the starting lineup are new, they're playing a new offensive system and he was slowed by illness (those first couple games you could see he had no energy and zero lift on his shots), but he's turned it around the past couple games. I'm not sold yet, but I'd like to see a string of games where he's healthy and playing with a consistent lineup, before joining the 'trade Bargnani' team.

    For me, as Nilanka points out, the biggest question is consistency. Assuming he does return to the good form he showed in the first 13 games last season, then I think he will have plateued, as far as skill is concerned. However, I think he can technically improve further, by improving his consistency and becoming more efficient with his scoring. I think his man defense is pretty good and he's even had a few decent rebounding games.

    I think the problem is that he's got so much working against him
    - he was a #1 overall pick (not his fault)
    - his destiny is forever linked to BC's destiny (not his fault)
    - he was asked to be the face of the franchise and the #1 guy after Bosh left (not his fault)
    - he is one of the few holdovers to the last success the team had and the horrible years that followed (not his fault)
    - he is a quiet, finesse player with a calm, cool personality, playing on a team in a city that prefers the emotional, gritty, lunchpail style players (ie: Raptors - Reggie, JYD, Leafs - Gilmour, Clark)

    I don't think it's fair to hold him up to other #1 overall picks. However, I absolutely agree that he should be held accountable to give 100% effort 100% of the time, playing up to the standard that he established in those few games last season that he's capable of playing at. Given his skillset, age and decent contract, I just wouldn't give up on him just yet... though I maintain that this season will be the last I defend him, if he doesn't prove himself capable of playing to that standard.

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  • Hugmenot
    replied
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    7 people voted "no"??? Who are these crazies??? Time to wake up from their psychedelic-induced trance.

    Anyone who disagrees with the statement, "Bargnani will never be better than what he currently is", is either new to the Raptors, or such a diehard Bargnani fan that admitting what is blatantly obvious to all, would be crushing his/her soul.
    I did not bother answering the poll because of this post.

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  • Nilanka
    replied
    Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    As I said, I am one of those. I think he can play at the average level of last year and right now he is playing below that level. So he regressed. As ebrian pointed out to me I might have interpreted 'plateaued' wrongly in which case I should vote yes. As I don't think he'll ever play better than last year's average for more than a few games.
    Sometimes he plays well, other times he doesn't. Can he play better than he's currently playing? Absolutely....we saw it last year. Can he maintain that high level for any longer than a handful of games? We have 6 years of evidence to suggest otherwise.

    It's this on and off cycle that I refer to as "plateauing". I highly doubt that Bargnani has anything left up his sleeve that we haven't seen before.

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