Time to end the Bargnani experiment

[NoPropsneeded]

He scored 37 points on 33 shots and missed more shots than Bargnani attempted, plus he had 5 turnovers and that clear-path foul was a backbreaker. Yes he scored, but his +/- was 2nd worst on the team last night (-9), just 1 point better than McGuire. Bargnani was the 2nd best player on the night at +1, one of only 3 players on the positive side (Lucas was +8 and Ross was +2). The team lost and there were several contributing factors... I'm just sick of so many people blaming Bargnani for everything.

IMO the plus minus bullshit is a waste of time it doesn't mean jackshit. DeRozan was the reason we were in the game he was doing everything well. He would have scored 50 had Scott Foster not been officiating. I can't believe you of all people are supporting bargnani, easily the worst performer on the team up until this point. He was NON EXISTANT in every overtime, didn't do anything well. Even the bargnani band wagoners are beginning to hate him

[CalgaryRapsFan]

This is the problem.

Contrast with Millsap's 34 points on 16 (16!!!!!) shots.

Now that is not normal but on the season Bargnani takes 16.1 shots to get 17.4 points. Then you have all the 'extras' he does not do.

Millsap gets 15.6 points on 11.1 shots but he does give you all the extras along with the deep threat and ability to drive on opposing bigs.

If Bargnani was super efficient, there would be little issue - at least for me. But, alas, he is not.

That clearly illustrates the big issue for the Raps - neither of their primary scorers (Bargnani & DeRozan) are efficient scorers. Add to that the complete waste that the starting SF has been and the fact that the starting C is a rookie, and its little wonder why the Raps have the record that they do.

[mcHAPPY]

Tons of hate towards him recently and he's been playing quite good for the last 3 games. 22.33 PPG, 7.3 boards, 2.3 assists, 2 steals and .66 blocks. Over those 3 he's shooting 41% from the floor only 27% from 3 and 85% from the charity strip with 6.67 attempts per game. I think the team is under achieving and everyone if frustrated and as we're all aware he's most peoples favorite punching bag (warranted to a certain extent).

All I want is Lowry back in the line up so we can actually see what these guys can do together. Were basically playing the exact same team as last year with the addition of JV and subtraction of JJ and Bayless. Lowry get well soon and hopefully Fields as well cause our perimeter D could use a boost.

This is the problem.

Contrast with Millsap's 34 points on 16 (16!!!!!) shots.

Now that is not normal but on the season Bargnani takes 16.1 shots to get 17.4 points. Then you have all the 'extras' he does not do.

Millsap gets 15.6 points on 11.1 shots but he does give you all the extras along with the deep threat and ability to drive on opposing bigs.

If Bargnani was super efficient, there would be little issue - at least for me. But, alas, he is not.

[RAPresenting]

I agree entirely, and ive said before, if you as a Raptors fan expects Bargnani to be a "decent" rebounder or an amazing defender, then youre shitting on the wrong tree, so to speak. Bargnani, throughout his career, has never had those qualities. IMO, he was drafted with the notion that he will someday be an elite scorer, which i think he can still become, but never a complete player.

But what i have come to realize is that for the team to be successful by the looks of how management is structuring the team, Bargnani is being put in a situation where he HAS to rebound and defend. And thats whats frustrating the fans. If the Raptors put Bargnani in a situation where all he needs to do is score, then the fans will be happy towards him. I think a great example is Jamal Crawford. When somebody mentions Jamal Crawford, what immediately comes to mind? Scoring. Its seldom mentioned that he's averaging 1.9 asts per game, or 1.0 rebounds or .2 stls. Nobody really pays attention to that because his role is to score. Every team would love to have a Jamal Crawford because he will win you the game with the last second shot. Nobody's saying he's a guard so he should get 10asts per night. Its because, IMO, the teams that he's been in, are coming in with the mentality that this guy is only good for scoring, so we have to live with that. I think Lowry is a good compliment to Bargnani because he's a slashing, rebounding guard. Now Demar is averaging close to 7 rebs a game, and if they get Smith who would most likely get 10rebs a game then JV turns into a 15/10 guy, I would cut my left nut if we'd still hear a complaint here that Bargnani is only averaging 4 rebs a game.

And since i doubt the raptors will ever be able to build a strong rebounding defending team around Bargnani, then he has to go.

With Fields playing like he's capable and Lowry in the line up the Raptors have more then enough rebounding and will win that battle majority of nights on the glass. No need to cut your left nut over rebounding as that isn't the issue with the team or was it last year. The issues were and are perimeter defense (Lowry and Fields should help this), 3 point shooters (still an issue unless Ross sees more minutes), free throw attempts and having multiple players who can create their own shot and for others (we have one in Lowry). Demar and Dre can get theirs but aren't facilitators IMO.

[RAPresenting]

Tons of hate towards him recently and he's been playing quite good for the last 3 games. 22.33 PPG, 7.3 boards, 2.3 assists, 2 steals and .66 blocks. Over those 3 he's shooting 41% from the floor only 27% from 3 and 85% from the charity strip with 6.67 attempts per game. I think the team is under achieving and everyone if frustrated and as we're all aware he's most peoples favorite punching bag (warranted to a certain extent).

All I want is Lowry back in the line up so we can actually see what these guys can do together. Were basically playing the exact same team as last year with the addition of JV and subtraction of JJ and Bayless. Lowry get well soon and hopefully Fields as well cause our perimeter D could use a boost.

[Brandon]

Agree with the first post, except that Derozan is just as bad. Inefficient scorer, nothing else. Flash but no substance. If these guys are so good, and the Raps need to "build around them", why are they on the court while the Raps lose games? What makes them so valuable if they can't win NBA basketball games?

The only ball player currently worth a damn on this roster is Lowry. JV might eventually turn into a useful player, but that's years down the road. That's why they're losing. The players aren't any good. Wishful thinking isn't a plan.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I absolutely agree with you about inherent positional expectations. However, in that case, you know going in that a guy like Bargnani is likely never going to fill those positional expectations, so you need to either somewhat adjust expectations for him or balance them with the expectations of the entire 5-man starting unit. It's just like wing players who are known more for their defensive prowess (ie: Tony Allen on Memphis) - it wouldn't be fair to judge him based on the top flight scoring expected out of your wings, because that's not what he brings to their starting 5 lineup.

If you want to go with traditional players at traditional positions with traditional expectations, then Bargnani will always 'fail' and will never earn a place on a team you cheer for. And that's a fair opinion.

My comparison between Bargnani and DeRozan was based on the fact that they are expected (by management and coaching staff) to provide scoring. Yet when comparing comprable stat lines just 1 game removed from one another (when adjusted to a standardized per minute average), it's clear that Bargnani is widely regarded as an epic failure, while DeRozan is being heralded as a budding superstar. For 2 players who should be evaulated with the same expectations - score big and score efficiently - I just don't see that being the case, which frustrates me.

I agree entirely, and ive said before, if you as a Raptors fan expects Bargnani to be a "decent" rebounder or an amazing defender, then youre shitting on the wrong tree, so to speak. Bargnani, throughout his career, has never had those qualities. IMO, he was drafted with the notion that he will someday be an elite scorer, which i think he can still become, but never a complete player.

But what i have come to realize is that for the team to be successful by the looks of how management is structuring the team, Bargnani is being put in a situation where he HAS to rebound and defend. And thats whats frustrating the fans. If the Raptors put Bargnani in a situation where all he needs to do is score, then the fans will be happy towards him. I think a great example is Jamal Crawford. When somebody mentions Jamal Crawford, what immediately comes to mind? Scoring. Its seldom mentioned that he's averaging 1.9 asts per game, or 1.0 rebounds or .2 stls. Nobody really pays attention to that because his role is to score. Every team would love to have a Jamal Crawford because he will win you the game with the last second shot. Nobody's saying he's a guard so he should get 10asts per night. Its because, IMO, the teams that he's been in, are coming in with the mentality that this guy is only good for scoring, so we have to live with that. I think Lowry is a good compliment to Bargnani because he's a slashing, rebounding guard. Now Demar is averaging close to 7 rebs a game, and if they get Smith who would most likely get 10rebs a game then JV turns into a 15/10 guy, I would cut my left nut if we'd still hear a complaint here that Bargnani is only averaging 4 rebs a game.

And since i doubt the raptors will ever be able to build a strong rebounding defending team around Bargnani, then he has to go.

[Nilanka]

I honestly think Management and Coaches expect more than just scoring from Bargnani. No concrete evidence to support my claim, but a hunch based on some of Casey's past quotes regarding "2 rebounds per quarter", etc.

Also, there's the youth factor to consider when comparing DeRozan to Bargnani. DeRozan in his 4th year, is steadily showing yearly improvement. We can't really say the same for Bargnani.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

IMO, we shouldn't have equal expectations for all players. Expectations should differ based on the position. Big men are expected to rebound, rotate, and challenge shots. Despite all the scoring Bargnani does, he will always be deficient in these categories, making his scoring numbers feel insufficient when judging his whole body of work.

I'm not going to have the same expectations for Calderon (for example) as I do Bargnani.

I absolutely agree with you about inherent positional expectations. However, in that case, you know going in that a guy like Bargnani is likely never going to fill those positional expectations, so you need to either somewhat adjust expectations for him or balance them with the expectations of the entire 5-man starting unit. It's just like wing players who are known more for their defensive prowess (ie: Tony Allen on Memphis) - it wouldn't be fair to judge him based on the top flight scoring expected out of your wings, because that's not what he brings to their starting 5 lineup.

If you want to go with traditional players at traditional positions with traditional expectations, then Bargnani will always 'fail' and will never earn a place on a team you cheer for. And that's a fair opinion.

My comparison between Bargnani and DeRozan was based on the fact that they are expected (by management and coaching staff) to provide scoring. Yet when comparing comprable stat lines just 1 game removed from one another (when adjusted to a standardized per minute average), it's clear that Bargnani is widely regarded as an epic failure, while DeRozan is being heralded as a budding superstar. For 2 players who should be evaulated with the same expectations - score big and score efficiently - I just don't see that being the case, which frustrates me.

[Nilanka]

IMO, we shouldn't have equal expectations for all players. Expectations should differ based on the position. Big men are expected to rebound, rotate, and challenge shots. Despite all the scoring Bargnani does, he will always be deficient in these categories, making his scoring numbers feel insufficient when judging his whole body of work.

I'm not going to have the same expectations for Calderon (for example) as I do Bargnani.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

This is the third time Ive replied to your posts, and you dont seem to get it.

If Bargs did 37 points on 49% shooting with 8rebounds 6 assists and 2 steals we would LOVE him to the highest degree.

I don't have to look any farther back than the previous game, where Bargnani had 23 points (on 9/19 shooting), 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 steals and just 1 turnover in 40 minutes played against Philly. If you extrapolate that to 60 minutes, then his stat line would be comprable to DeRozan's was last night (34.5 pts/7.5 rebounds/4.5 assists/4.5 steals/1.5 turnovers).

I'm not defending Bargnani and I'm not hating on DeRozan. In a season that so far is filled with nothing but frustration for us Raps fans, I'm just growing frustrated with posters who evaluate different players with unequal expectations/accountability. I admit that I am probably just as guilty, but I don't come out calling for any particular player's head after each and every loss. Bargnani has flaws and needs to improve, much like every player on the roster (DeRozan included) and even the coaching staff. However, I think it's completely unfair and unjustified to blame this loss and the team's record solely on him, which multiple threads seem to be doing this week.

It goes back to last year too, even during Bargnani's "good" stretch, when many posters couldn't accept that he was providing anything positive to the team. It seemed like after every one of his "good" games, posters were still out calling him "one dimensional", "ineffcient", "volume scorer", etc... That's exactly what DeRozan was last night, yet the DD-koolaid is flowing freely today. He had 37 points on 33 shots in 60 minutes, and he missed more shots (18) than any other Raptor even attempted! All I'm asking for is equal evaluation and fair/tempered expectations. Hell, if this doesn't stop, the same hate currently being directed at Bargnani is eventually going to be directed towards DeRozan... I'm just trying to avoid the cycle of animosity/blame towards our own players, based on unfair expectations being heaped on them.

[ceez]

these days im thrilled when he has a pulse

[ceez]

man imagine bargs dropped 37/8/6?

[enlightenment]

You're right, but it was a bad turnover by DeRozan that resulted in the clear-path foul being called. I was mentioning that in addition to having an inefficient scoring night (17/33 and 1/6 3pt), DeRozan also committed quite a few costly turnovers. I'm not blaming him for the loss, I think teams win or lose as teams.

The frustration for me is that if Bargnani had put up the stats that DeRozan did last night, most posters on RR would be ripping him a new one for being an inefficient one-dimensional volume scorer who disappeared in OT, whereas people are praising DeRozan for having a career game. I don't care who the player is, it just irks me when one player is continually blamed for everything going bad for a team (and I'm not referring to you TRex, I'm just replying to your post). We could easily point out several plays by just about every player, in addition to many decisions by coaching staff, which all culminated in the loss last night.

For the record, I see definite improvement in DeRozan this year, but scoring 37 points on 33 shots in 60 minutes (essentially almost 2 games worth of playing time) is far from 'star quality'. He's heading in the right direction and I'm hopeful he'll get there, but he still has a loooooong way to go before I would say he's rightfully earned that fat new contract.

This is the third time Ive replied to your posts, and you dont seem to get it.

If Bargs did 37 points on 49% shooting with 8rebounds 6 assists and 2 steals we would LOVE him to the highest degree.

[mcHAPPY]

You're right, but it was a bad turnover by DeRozan that resulted in the clear-path foul being called. I was mentioning that in addition to having an inefficient scoring night (17/33 and 1/6 3pt), DeRozan also committed quite a few costly turnovers. I'm not blaming him for the loss, I think teams win or lose as teams.

The frustration for me is that if Bargnani had put up the stats that DeRozan did last night, most posters on RR would be ripping him a new one for being an inefficient one-dimensional volume scorer who disappeared in OT, whereas people are praising DeRozan for having a career game. I don't care who the player is, it just irks me when one player is continually blamed for everything going bad for a team (and I'm not referring to you TRex, I'm just replying to your post). We could easily point out several plays by just about every player, in addition to many decisions by coaching staff, which all culminated in the loss last night.

For the record, I see definite improvement in DeRozan this year, but scoring 37 points on 33 shots in 60 minutes (essentially almost 2 games worth of playing time) is far from 'star quality'. He's heading in the right direction and I'm hopeful he'll get there, but he still has a loooooong way to go before I would say he's rightfully earned that fat new contract.

The difference is DeMar also managed to get 8 rebounds and 6 assists.

Sadly, Bargnani sets the tone for the team it seems - especially when he does not play. I just can't stop thinking about where the Raps would be with a PF such as Millsap in his place. For all the talk of what the Raptors are attempting to do and the characteristics the team is trying to embody, I don't see how Bargnani meets that criteria.