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  • Stretch 4 vs. Typical 4

    Has there been any instances of teams being successful utliziing a stretch 4 vs. a typical 4?
    Also, if a stretch 4 pulls the defending team's 4 away from the basket, has Demar benefitted with increased shots closer to the basket?

    Personally, I would rather have guards and wings shooting 3s, and our 4 grabbing boards or taking shots within 10-15 feet.

  • #2
    Orlando would be the most glaring example of winning without a traditional PF when they had Lewis/Turk at the forward positions with Howard up front. The Nash-led Suns also had success at times with perimeter-oriented PFs. The Spurs have often played Duncan at C and won championships utilizing a guy like Horry at the 4. There are probably other examples but those jump out at me....

    Sorry (edit): Nowitzki may also be listed here but I've never really considered him a simple "stretch 4" as he's one of the best players ever to play the game. He does more than hit jumpers.
    Last edited by slaw; Mon Nov 26th, 2012, 12:33 PM.

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    • #3
      Dirk Nowitski was obviously the guy that comes to mind.. but it's usually not so common to have a stretch 4. Guys like Bosh, Garnett and Gasol can stretch the floor as well, but they can also bang inside.

      It's why I never liked Bargnani. His game doesn't mold well to a traditional power forward which is a guy who rebounds, hustles and plays D.

      If you look at the best shooting guards in the game, you can see that most of them did not play with a stretch 4 but was still able to get plenty of points. Having a stretch 4 open things up for others in my opinion is a myth.

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      • #4
        sheed.

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        • #5
          The difference with all the other stretch fours, is that even at 6'10'' Lewis rebounded better than Bargs
          The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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          • #6
            "Has there been any instances of teams being successful utliziing a stretch 4"

            The last 6 NBA championships have been won by teams that have a 4 that very regularly shoot from beyond 16 ft. Is that successful enough?

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            • #7
              slaw wrote: View Post
              Orlando would be the most glaring example of winning without a traditional PF when they had Lewis/Turk at the forward positions with Howard up front. The Nash-led Suns also had success at times with perimeter-oriented PFs. The Spurs have often played Duncan at C and won championships utilizing a guy like Horry at the 4. There are probably other examples but those jump out at me....

              Sorry (edit): Nowitzki may also be listed here but I've never really considered him a simple "stretch 4" as he's one of the best players ever to play the game. He does more than hit jumpers.
              Those are great examples and in all those cases the stretch 4 prospered due to a much better player in the lineup getting them those shots, and in return they made it easier on the star player to get easy points & rebounds on the inside (Duncan & Dwight) or penetrate inside to open up more options (Nash or in Rasheed's case a guy like Chauncy Billups, which were really the only years where Sheed's 3-point shooting became a backbreaker rather than a shot he also had every once in a while).

              Dirk is the anomaly where as the stretch 4 he's actually the best player on the court but even he loses a lot of his specialness when not put in the proper system. And as you mentioned he's one of the all-time greats, you can't bank on legendary skills all the time.

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              • #8
                Letter N wrote: View Post
                Those are great examples and in all those cases the stretch 4 prospered due to a much better player in the lineup getting them those shots, and in return they made it easier on the star player to get easy points & rebounds on the inside (Duncan & Dwight) or penetrate inside to open up more options (Nash or in Rasheed's case a guy like Chauncy Billups, which were really the only years where Sheed's 3-point shooting became a backbreaker rather than a shot he also had every once in a while).

                Dirk is the anomaly where as the stretch 4 he's actually the best player on the court but even he loses a lot of his specialness when not put in the proper system. And as you mentioned he's one of the all-time greats, you can't bank on legendary skills all the time.
                And what makes Dirk special isn't that he stretches the floor.

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                • #9
                  p00ka wrote: View Post
                  "Has there been any instances of teams being successful utliziing a stretch 4"

                  The last 6 NBA championships have been won by teams that have a 4 that very regularly shoot from beyond 16 ft. Is that successful enough?
                  Is a guy who can shoot from 16 ft considered a stretch 4?

                  If thats the case the majority of the leagues PFs are stretch 4s and probably half of the C are to.

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                  • #10
                    Rashard Lewis comes to mind, Toni Kukoc perhaps, you might even say Kevin Love as he can operate from outside as well, but he's more of a banger IMO.

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                    • #11
                      p00ka wrote: View Post
                      "Has there been any instances of teams being successful utliziing a stretch 4"

                      The last 6 NBA championships have been won by teams that have a 4 that very regularly shoot from beyond 16 ft. Is that successful enough?
                      I don't think any basketball person considers Bosh, Gasol or Garnett "stretch 4s". They are Power Forwards with diverse offensive games that happen to include the ability to knock down jumpers. You are also talking about twp of the greatest PFs of all time (Garnett and Gasol) and one of the most efficient offensive PFs in the history of the NBA (Bosh). These are not useful comparisons to Bargnani.

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                      • #12
                        slaw wrote: View Post
                        I don't think any basketball person considers Bosh, Gasol or Garnett "stretch 4s". They are Power Forwards with diverse offensive games that happen to include the ability to knock down jumpers. You are also talking about twp of the greatest PFs of all time (Garnett and Gasol) and one of the most efficient offensive PFs in the history of the NBA (Bosh). These are not useful comparisons to Bargnani.
                        The question for the thread was "Has there been any instances of teams being successful utliziing a stretch 4 vs. a typical 4?", not is AB as good as these other guys. Now whatever the poster thinks is a "typical 4", which is ever evolving in today's NBA, what would you call a "stretch 4"? These are open to interpretation, but to suggest "any basketball person" doesn't consider them stretch 4s, I give you the following facts, based on last year's stats:
                        ................% FGAs are jump shots.... % of jump shots beyond 16 ft...... total FGAs beyond 16 ft
                        Bargs ....................78............................ ...39...........................................30
                        KG.........................79..................... ..........51...................................... .....40
                        Bosh......................60...................... .........59....................................... ....39
                        Pau.......................63...................... ..........39...................................... .....25
                        Dirk.......................87..................... ...........33..................................... ......29

                        Saying they "happen to be able to knock down jumpers" doesn't describe how they're being used. Again, this wasn't about asking for a comparison of bargs vs these guys, but if you don't think all of these guys aren't being used to "stretch" the floor, on a very regular basis, then you're ignoring facts. To get back to the question posed in the opening of this thread, every team that has won the last 6 championships, has PFs playing outside the paint a significant amount of time and taking from 25-40% of their shots from beyond 16 ft., with KG shooting more from out there than any of them.

                        So the answer to the original question is that all recent most successful teams are significantly utilizing a 4 as an outside shooter, stretching the floor rather than clogging the paint. Damn, it's the new NBA, not someone's perception, dating back to olden times, of what a "typical 4" is.
                        Last edited by p00ka; Mon Nov 26th, 2012, 03:51 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Arsenalist wrote: View Post
                          Rashard Lewis comes to mind, Toni Kukoc perhaps, you might even say Kevin Love as he can operate from outside as well, but he's more of a banger IMO.
                          Funny how some perceptions can be so far off. To illustrate how much he's a stretch, and not "can operate from outside as well, but he's more of a banger", using the same last year stats as above:

                          61% of his FGAs are jump shots, 70% of which are beyond 16 ft, making 42% of his total FGAs from beyond 16 ft.

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                          • #14
                            p00ka wrote: View Post
                            The question for the thread was "Has there been any instances of teams being successful utliziing a stretch 4 vs. a typical 4?", not is AB as good as these other guys. Now whatever the poster thinks is a "typical 4", which is ever evolving in today's NBA, what would you call a "stretch 4"? These are open to interpretation, but to suggest "any basketball person" doesn't consider them stretch 4s, I give you the following facts, based on last year's stats:
                            ................% FGAs are jump shots.... % of jump shots beyond 16 ft...... total FGAs beyond 16 ft
                            Bargs ....................78............................ ...39...........................................30
                            KG.........................79..................... ..........51...................................... .....40
                            Bosh......................60...................... .........51....................................... ....31
                            Pau.......................63...................... ..........39...................................... .....25
                            Dirk.......................87..................... ...........33..................................... ......29

                            Saying they "happen to be able to knock down jumpers" doesn't describe how they're being used. Again, this wasn't about asking for a comparison of bargs vs these guys, but if you don't think all of these guys aren't being used to "stretch" the floor, on a very regular basis, then you're ignoring facts. To get back to the question posed in the opening of this thread, every team that has won the last 6 championships, has PFs playing outside the paint a significant amount of time and taking from 25-40% of their shots from beyond 16 ft., with KG shooting more from out there than any of them.

                            So the answer to the original question is that all recent most successful teams are significantly utilizing a 4 as an outside shooter, stretching the floor rather than clogging the paint. Damn, it's the new NBA, not someone's perception, dating back to olden times, of what a "typical 4" is.
                            Where did you get your numbers from? Bargnani took almost 290 shots from 16ft+, had he played a full season that would have been over 600? That would also amount to 64% of his shots from 16ft+ 3pters alone he took 115 in 31 games.

                            Anyways, almost every NBA championship teams had a "4 who could hit an outside shot" - Horry, Duncan, Worthy, Rasheed Wallace. etc etc. Again, if we are going define a "Stretch 4" = PF with an outside shot = 16 ft + , then most of this leagues 4s are stretch 4s.

                            But I also don't think you'll find many people who define "stretch" by anything less than a player who regularily shoots 3pters.

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                            • #15
                              Craiger wrote: View Post
                              Where did you get your numbers from? Bargnani took almost 290 shots from 16ft+, had he played a full season that would have been over 600? That would also amount to 64% of his shots from 16ft+ 3pters alone he took 115 in 31 games.

                              Anyways, almost every NBA championship teams had a "4 who could hit an outside shot" - Horry, Duncan, Worthy, Rasheed Wallace. etc etc. Again, if we are going define a "Stretch 4" = PF with an outside shot = 16 ft + , then most of this leagues 4s are stretch 4s.

                              But I also don't think you'll find many people who define "stretch" by anything less than a player who regularily shoots 3pters.
                              I screwed up on the last 2 of ABs numbers, and they should read very close to KGs numbers.

                              Aside from that, the main point is about "stretch" vs "typical". Now I don't know what anyone's concept of "typical" is in today's NBA, because there's no such thing, but the term "stretch" seems to be referring to a PF that "stretches" the defense (thus the use of the bloody term), not exclusive to 3 pt shooters. Taking 25-40% of one's FGAs from beyond 16 ft, as a PF, means they're spending a significant amount of time out there, and stretching the D to contribute to their success. There's good reason the Raps offense works better when AB is on the floor, even when his shots aren't dropping. Now, I'm not at all commending him for his play thus far, but responding to the "stretch 4" providing success question. In today's NBA, if you don't have a PF stretching the D regularly, whether that be out to 16 ft or 20 ft, you'd better have a bunch of Ray Allen's on you're team, because you aren't getting much in the paint.

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