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Why it (probably) isn't time to trade Bargnani

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  • #31
    ebrian wrote: View Post
    I was referring to guys like Calderon, Lowry, DeRozan, Kleiza, even Lucas. Each of these guys are capable of going off for 20+ points while having a fairly efficient ball game.
    Sometimes I wonder if people here even watch basketball. In what world is Linas Kleiza, and ESPECIALLY John Lucas, capable of going off for an efficient 20? John Lucas has ALWAYS been a fringe NBA player and basically every team in the league has 5-8 guys who can score better than him. So if he is indeed part of our great offense, than every team in the league must be on the verge of a dynasty.
    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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    • #32
      i dislike how BC has been thrown under the bus. In a lot of situations i believe he's made excellent decisions mainly being the draft. He has had his "mistakes" as being a gm but at the time we all thought jermaine oneal was going to workout for us, turk i think we thought he would help (minus the crazy contract.) Being where we are located we have to over pay for free agents and will continue to have to until we are a championship contending team where players want to be here to win. As for his draft record i'd say he's done a pretty good job with all of our picks as of late (demar, ed, JV) its too soon to say but i would say he's made the best decisions considering our drafting position.

      Bargs is terrible i believe we are all aware of that i even question his offence, some of the shots he take are just ugly and forced, there's no reading the defence its "I'm going to dribble and pull up and see what happens." I don't know what we could get for him but i would be happy if he was a part or main part of a josh smith or amare deal. also i would not be opposed to getting some picks even if we didn't keep them they are (bryans favorite word) assets.

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      • #33
        Lark Benson wrote: View Post
        Didn't get a chance to respond last night, so I'll try to tackle a bunch of objections at once here. But let me just state that the reason I included the (probably) in the title was because we, as fans, of course have no idea what BC could get for Bargs right now just as we have no idea what he could get for him a year from now. It's simply my personal opinion that dumping him for spare parts isn't going to help the club long term.



        I agree that trading the team's youth would be a step backwards, but that's exactly why including Bargs in any such deal is essential: it minimizes the amount of youth going the other way. If the team traded Bargs at next year's deadline for example, they could easilly include their 2015 first rounder, a young guy like Ross, Bargs and maybe Ed Davis (depending entirely on what calibre of player is being traded for and what position they play, etc). That would keep a Val/DD/Lowry combo intact while adding a potential franchise player.

        As for the ability to resign the player, I think it depends far more on the quality of the team than it does on the city. If a player gets here, is surrounded by enough talent that complements them and sees they have a chance to compete for a deep playoff run, there's a very good chance they'll resign. I'm not worried about that aspect of it.

        And yes, the odds of the one of these deals coming up ARE slim, there's no denying that. But are they worse than hoping DD or JV develop into a franchise guy in 2-3 years? Worse than praying a free agent will sign here, or that the team will win the lottery? How else do you see the team landing a franchise guy?




        The key thing here is that by no means is Bargs the key piece being traded by the Raps, so his trade value declining is essentially irrelevant. Bargs would be the throw-in, filler contract that evens out the contract values being exchanged and helps fill the void left by a likely 20ppg type scorer while the young guys develop, not the centre-piece of the trade. What teams really want is flexibility (which Barg' deal gives, with likely 1.5-2 years left on it when traded), and a bunch of youth they can develop.

        I say have him come off the bench, start Ed Davis. Bargs can jack up shots with the second unit, his defense will be less of an issue there, and you keep his contract in your back pocket in case you need it. And if nothing comes up, you can dump him as easilly then for spare parts as now.

        I understand the 'losing culture' argument, but personally I think that's one of those bullshit sports cliches that needs to die. Skilled players win games, nothing else matters nearly as much. It's only a 'losing culture' until a player comes along that can drag a franchise out of irrelevance. We've already seen it once with VC in Toronto, but there are countless other examples of franchises that didn't matter until they landed a superstar.




        I just wanted to include this because I saw this response popped up a few times.

        Let me be clear: Bargs is NOT the main attraction of any such future trade. As I said above, he's the cap filler / temporary attraction that the other GM uses to defend his trade. The youth and flexibility of a soon-to-be-expiring deal are what matters. Any trade for a franchise player would have to likely include Ross, a future first rounder, and possibly more. My point is that I don't see such a trade being completed without Bargnani's deal because the Raps don't have any other contracts on their books that would be appealing to another GM who needs to have all-star type money coming back his way to complete a deal (unless you want to give up Lowry or DeRozan, which you'd only want to do if you're getting a top-5 player at their respective positions).

        As for what kind of deals BC can swing, yes he could probably get something semi-useful for Bargs, but again what's the point? Unless you believe that Lowry/DD/Val is a deep playoff core down the road, then all you're doing by dumping Bargs is treading water. On top of that, you could just as easilly dump him for spare parts next year (in fact it'd probably easier since his contract will be shorter the longer you wait). In my opinion dumping him now is just bad asset management.
        you've pretty much convinced me. I can buy that teams will look at bargnani's contract as flexibility in a bit, I still think it is improbable that we will find a trading partner, but hey let's look at what's going on with everyone else before we have that discussion.

        Im just curious? Do you see dwane casey bringing bargnani off the bench, this is infuriating.

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        • #34
          KeonClark wrote: View Post
          Sometimes I wonder if people here even watch basketball. In what world is Linas Kleiza, and ESPECIALLY John Lucas, capable of going off for an efficient 20? John Lucas has ALWAYS been a fringe NBA player and basically every team in the league has 5-8 guys who can score better than him. So if he is indeed part of our great offense, than every team in the league must be on the verge of a dynasty.
          You've got an interesting imagination, but unfortunately no one actually said these guys will average 20 points per night. The Raptors are still the bad team you see before us. After all I did project this team to win their 5th game in January.

          What would you say is an efficient night of scoring? A 50%+ shooting night? I'd say 50% is super efficient.. 45% is probably enough but I did a query for 50%+.

          John Lucas III (3): http://bkref.com/tiny/F6yky
          Linas Kleiza (23): http://bkref.com/tiny/LhWcq
          Jose Calderon (29): http://bkref.com/tiny/QqJWk
          Kyle Lowry (20): http://bkref.com/tiny/TjE5D
          DeMar DeRozan (42): http://bkref.com/tiny/3uiTk
          Andrea Bargnani (83): http://bkref.com/tiny/2b2tF

          For arguments sake I've added Bargnani in there, but the 5 are above and we still have JV and Ross. JV's already done it once, Ross had a 19 point game two nights ago on 9 of 17 shooting. Give each of these guys 2-3 years and check their occurrences again.

          Btw, awesome tool I just found. I've always known about the game finder at B-R.com but not the ability to pull up specific players and run queries on every game they've each played. Pretty awesome..
          your pal,
          ebrian

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