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  • #46
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    He is what he is. All past arguments were of the idea of what he could be. He showed what he could be but decides to return to what he is. See you, Andrea.

    He is one-dimensional who of late is half-dimensional.
    Agreed on all fronts.

    It's a shame though.

    The type of division his presence has created in the fanbase is so stark in contrast it makes me wonder how his teammates feel about him.

    Comment


    • #47
      sleepz wrote: View Post
      Agreed on all fronts.

      It's a shame though.

      The type of division his presence has created in the fanbase is so stark in contrast it makes me wonder how his teammates feel about him.
      I think that is a fair question. There is a double standard.

      @RaptorsMR (formerly known as @RaptorsPR) is a great follow on Twitter. We had this exchange:

      RaptorsMR ‏@RaptorsMR

      Call it all you want. You around him everyday. @RapsFan2: @AlexHenriquez_ I call BS. Last yr in those magical games.
      @RaptorsPR No, I'm not which may be why I am not blind. I have watched over 360 of 394 games in the last 5 seasons tho. #tradeBargnani
      RaptorsMR ‏@RaptorsMR

      So you answers are as simple as trading one player? "@RapsFan2:
      @RaptorsPR Yes, actually. He is everything we were told Raps would not be. Look at game tape of the heart & hustle team plays w/ AB on bench
      @RaptorsPR How can anyone on this team have respect for coach or team with huge double standard? #tradeBargnani #freRaptorfans
      RaptorsMR ‏@RaptorsMR

      Huge? C'mon now. "@RapsFan2: How can anyone on this team have respect for coach or team with huge double standard?
      @RaptorsPR Choose your adjective but there is a double standard as you implied. Should not be especially after accountability talk from DC
      So while I may be putting words in his mouth, I got the impression that he did admit/imply there is a double standard. While it may not be "huge" it is still there and that would certainly make me a little resentful if I were his teammate - especially another PF/C.

      Comment


      • #48
        TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
        I agree with this. And just to be clear, i am not blaming Bargnani. Im blaming management. But unfortunately. you cannot trade management. so you trade the player, and let management rework the team to get players that will fit the system and the culture that the team is trying to achieve. Bargnani is not that. Bargnani does not belong with the Raptors, why continue to force something that will not work?

        Like i said before, Jamal Crawford is a perfect example. The guy is a guard yet he averages 1-2 asts per game. he averages 1.2 rebs a game. but nobody's asking for his head. the guy is revered. because teams that he's been in, have expected him to only score. no coach subs him in and tells him, pass the ball, create plays, stop Kobe. unfortunately for bargnani, with the raps, he is expected to do more than just score. hopefully the next team he ends up with, he scores 20pts with 1 reb and 1 ast and theyll be happy.
        great example with jamal crawford. but even management i can not blame, BC was not allowed to spend the money he needed to put the team he wanted on the floor. rather they told him to build through the draft, imo this will never work, okc is the rare example. ( name some more if you can i would love to know) but in the end to me all the blame for everything were going through as fans and the people employed by the raps fall only on the previous owners. the teacher who apparently know nothing about sports were happy with the money they were making off our shitty low payroll teams, give are new owners a couple years and i promise they will right our wrongs. they have the money to spend plus i'm sure there intelligent enough to understand that the more you win in Toronto the more money you will make.

        Comment


        • #49
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          There is no hate in my analysis of Bargnani.

          Hate is a result of the analysis.

          **Hate is used for Andrea's game, not talking about him as a person, hate would just be psychotic then**

          I respectfully agree to disagree that Bargnani is a better player than Lowry or DeRozan. This discussion for me has 'better player' meaning contributes more to winning. There is no question Bargnani's skills are phenomenal but skills don't win games without heart, hustle, and desire.
          Hate may have been harsh but your regular rants, pleas and hash tags point to you knocking on the doorstep of hate. Your not on the same level as Tim W but you're well on your way. lol

          All jokes aside I had it as 1) Lowry 2) Bargnani and 3) Demar but if you read my post I based it on what they bring to the table today.

          I agree 110% with the heart, hustle and desire the guy doesn't seem to have a soul or any form of human emotion. .

          The team is flawed with "talented" or "physically gifted" players but none of them outside of Lowry and JV can contribute on both ends of the floor or are traditional players to their respective positions. Two of our 3 best players are liabilities for what they are supposed to do at their positions. Andrea won't rebound consistently (I won't put can't because it's all effort not ability), seems nervous to help defensively (leave his man like he'll get yelled @) and doesn't give an honest effort night in and night out. Demar can't shoot the 3 worth shit, has a suspect handle at best, limited play making skills for others and plays defense part time. If these two were 4th, 5th or 6th best players on the team we wouldn't have an issue but to rely on these two to do heavy lifting and expect results isn't realistic. In the grand scheme of things were arguing over rotation players at best on meaningful teams, not corner stones for successful franchises.

          Comment


          • #50
            Jkwasia wrote: View Post
            If he could only show the hunger to go at the defensive stoppers(i.e Tony allen.Iggy,thabo sefolosha,etc) he would be an allstar this year plus if the team could win....sigh
            Big if....he is mentally weak will never be able to do it on a consistant basis.

            Comment


            • #51
              NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
              DeRozan is a top 10 rebounding guard in the league right now!
              He's been getting on the glass which is awesome because he is big for a SG and obviously athletic enough. He has improved on the boards and ability to post up smaller guards (needs to do it way more) from last year.

              Next things on the check list still have to be getting stronger so he can finish in traffic, tightening up that dribble, corner 3's and last but not least staying focused and having a hunger to stop someone defensively. He made a huge jump this summer I hope he can do it again next summer so he can round out himself as a two way player.

              He's definitely improving which is great to see.

              Comment


              • #52
                RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                He's been getting on the glass which is awesome because he is big for a SG and obviously athletic enough. He has improved on the boards and ability to post up smaller guards (needs to do it way more) from last year.

                Next things on the check list still have to be getting stronger so he can finish in traffic, tightening up that dribble, corner 3's and last but not least staying focused and having a hunger to stop someone defensively. He made a huge jump this summer I hope he can do it again next summer so he can round out himself as a two way player.

                He's definitely improving which is great to see.
                Agreed.

                Comment


                • #53
                  I think that is a fair question. There is a double standard.

                  @RaptorsMR (formerly known as @RaptorsPR) is a great follow on Twitter. We had this exchange:



                  Interesting, especially if PR is around the team on a regular basis.

                  I'm not a professional athlete so I look at it on a very basic level (high school, college), but as a player you want guys with you who are going to battle. They may have flaws in their game, as I know I did, but you want to be able to count on a teammate.

                  I do think double standards exist and it can be warranted imho. Kobe is going to be treated in the organization differently than Steve Blake but Kobe is one of the greatest of all time. I think Andrea was annointed in this organization before he actually really did anything of note.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                    He's been getting on the glass which is awesome because he is big for a SG and obviously athletic enough. He has improved on the boards and ability to post up smaller guards (needs to do it way more) from last year.

                    Next things on the check list still have to be getting stronger so he can finish in traffic, tightening up that dribble, corner 3's and last but not least staying focused and having a hunger to stop someone defensively. He made a huge jump this summer I hope he can do it again next summer so he can round out himself as a two way player.

                    He's definitely improving which is great to see.
                    and1 will definitely help the ft% of this team if they only have to take 1 shot ... lol

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                      Hate may have been harsh but your regular rants, pleas and hash tags point to you knocking on the doorstep of hate. Your not on the same level as Tim W but you're well on your way. lol

                      All jokes aside I had it as 1) Lowry 2) Bargnani and 3) Demar but if you read my post I based it on what they bring to the table today.

                      I agree 110% with the heart, hustle and desire the guy doesn't seem to have a soul or any form of human emotion. .

                      The team is flawed with "talented" or "physically gifted" players but none of them outside of Lowry and JV can contribute on both ends of the floor or are traditional players to their respective positions. Two of our 3 best players are liabilities for what they are supposed to do at their positions. Andrea won't rebound consistently (I won't put can't because it's all effort not ability), seems nervous to help defensively (leave his man like he'll get yelled @) and doesn't give an honest effort night in and night out. Demar can't shoot the 3 worth shit, has a suspect handle at best, limited play making skills for others and plays defense part time. If these two were 4th, 5th or 6th best players on the team we wouldn't have an issue but to rely on these two to do heavy lifting and expect results isn't realistic. In the grand scheme of things were arguing over rotation players at best on meaningful teams, not corner stones for successful franchises.

                      The same type of focus and analysis was used with past optimistic posts and opinions. Very, very sadly for me as a Raptors fan, circumstances and facts have most definitely changed my opinion on the state of the franchise, overall. I do think Bargnani is the poster child for everything that is currently wrong in Toronto. His referral to himself as the best player on the team and constant focus on his own scoring is yet another example of the attention to what is wrong. Hopefully a change of circumstances and facts is able to sway my opinion back the other way regarding the franchise's fate - and hopefully sooner than later.

                      The hardest thing for many to do - especially those who are intelligent, well-education, and/or successful - is to admit when they are wrong. After all consistently being incorrect is hardly going to lead to intelligence, higher education, and overall success. However, there is no greater and painful downfall one can experience by clinging to old notions and opinions as fact when the truth is right in front of them - or for the majority in this case, on your television screen. Denial is a powerful state to be in.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        slaw wrote: View Post
                        There's an article someone posted on RealGM which is Messina talking about the importance of offence-defense balance on the theory that if you have a team that moves the ball, shares the ball and trusts each other on offence it will extend to defence. You could also take the other approach (like the ol' Larry Brown view) that trust on defence breeds trust on offence and more scoring.

                        Either way, when you watch all the one-on-one nonsense on offence - it's my turn to shoot! now it's your turn! now it's his turn. That's a big problem. Then, you watch the defense, and it's missed rotations, poor help, straight line drives, wide open shooters.... a mess. You get the sense that right now it's less of a team than a bunch of individuals playing for themselves.
                        The guy who wrote this article is probably using the Memphis Grizzlies as an example.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          In the NBA, benching the star of your team is a very *iffy* territory. You avoid it as a coach, as it can create all sorts of chemistry and team problems. Sam did this to Carter and we know how that ended (sure he was right to bench Carter, Carter was giving 50%, but it created more venom for him than dealing with it behind closed doors - Carter's value plummeted around the league). Other coaches have done it to stars and have suffered increased media scrutiny and sometimes have not survived such a decision.

                          I think Pops is the only coach that can pull it off without ego's exploding.


                          I don't think Casey has been here long enough to have the solid footing to push Andrea around, I think that is Bryans job, to ship him out, or put him on notice. You can't really expect Casey to come in here and make mince meat out of the GM's best offering. He needs to tippy toe a little as well... and act like he shares Bryan's vision to a degree, since Bryan can pink slip him anytime he wants.
                          Last edited by BasketballCrush; Wed Dec 5th, 2012, 08:39 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            The same type of focus and analysis was used with past optimistic posts and opinions. Very, very sadly for me as a Raptors fan, circumstances and facts have most definitely changed my opinion on the state of the franchise, overall. I do think Bargnani is the poster child for everything that is currently wrong in Toronto. His referral to himself as the best player on the team and constant focus on his own scoring is yet another example of the attention to what is wrong. Hopefully a change of circumstances and facts is able to sway my opinion back the other way regarding the franchise's fate - and hopefully sooner than later.

                            The hardest thing for many to do - especially those who are intelligent, well-education, and/or successful - is to admit when they are wrong. After all consistently being incorrect is hardly going to lead to intelligence, higher education, and overall success. However, there is no greater and painful downfall one can experience by clinging to old notions and opinions as fact when the truth is right in front of them - or for the majority in this case, on your television screen. Denial is a powerful state to be in.
                            It seems that AB particularly is not adequately focused on team above all else. DC has to take some of blame...he should either sit AB or put him on the bench as the sixth man.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                              Does it even matter who the best player on the team is. The last time I checked you need multiple good players to have a winning team. Bargnani Derozan Lowry are all good peices. Our only problem is at small forward if Raptors can aquire a good sf we will solve a lot of the problems. Fields is not the answer unfortuntaly and that signing really set us back.
                              This has been a problem for years...every Oct we are told what great team chemistry we have by media yet as soon as we run into difficult stretches we fall apart. Overall we , more than not, do not play like a team. Overall as a team we are not mentally tough. I look at who has been here the longest--BC, AB, JC.....it is not a coincidence.

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