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Trade Jose at the height of his value

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  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    ebrian wrote: View Post
    I think with a rebuilding team, what matters more is if Lowry is guaranteed to be a Raptor when it counts, 2 years from now. I know that the winning streak has changed the "blow it up!" tone of this board, but to me nothing has really changed. So far we've won 1 more game that I thought we would. If Lowry is traded, I think Jose would remain. Why wouldn't he? You give the guy the keys to the car, he's going to take it. He loves Toronto, he has never really outwardly demanded a trade. He's a pro in every sense of the word.
    I am still down for blow it up: trade Bargnani/Kleiza/Jose/possibly Amir for awful contracts/picks and play the youth.

    This is all our own opinions of course but given BC has tried to replace Jose 3 times, he has been on the trade block for nearly 3 years, he has talked about wanting to play to win, he has mentioned playing in a warmer climate, and the amount of money Toronto should be willing to offer is on par with the full MLE, I don't see Jose a Raptor beyond this season.

    The same reasons you gave for giving the car to Jose can also be applied to Jose. You give Lowry the keys to the car, he's going to take it especially after how his stops in Memphis and Houston have played out.

    Leave a comment:


  • ebrian
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Those are interesting questions.

    I would add two more:

    - Who is guaranteed to be a Raptor next year? (Lowry)
    - Does Jose even want to remain in Toronto? (I don't know)
    I think with a rebuilding team, what matters more is if Lowry is guaranteed to be a Raptor when it counts, 2 years from now. I know that the winning streak has changed the "blow it up!" tone of this board, but to me nothing has really changed. So far we've won 1 more game that I thought we would. If Lowry is traded, I think Jose would remain. Why wouldn't he? You give the guy the keys to the car, he's going to take it. He loves Toronto, he has never really outwardly demanded a trade. He's a pro in every sense of the word.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    ebrian wrote: View Post
    That's a good point planetmars. He's been the consummate professional, but why would he show us loyalty as if we shown him a lot of loyalty in the past 6 years?

    I've been thinking about this for awhile now. Lowry, obviously, is a good point guard. If he isn't so 'bull-headed', he could become a great one. But whether he is the right guy for this team right now is hard for me to say. If we were looking at this down the road, as in if we traded for Lowry after Ross and JV had 2 years of experience, there would be no question at all for me that he's the right guy.

    Thing is, Jose Calderon stands the best chance of helping this young team develop right now. That should be clear to everyone over the past 2 weeks. I think Lowry is the type of point guard this team will need down the road. It's clear that Colangelo felt the same way -- he thought we had what it took to be a playoff team with Lowry. What he offered for Lowry makes that crystal clear. But he was wrong, we're not a playoff team and we're probably a couple years away from being a team where people say "these 6-7 teams will make the playoffs while the final spot up-for-grabs between ABC teams". Right now we aren't even in that ABC group.

    Here's a few questions to ponder, my answers in brackets:

    - Who would net more in a trade, a healthy Kyle Lowry or an expiring Jose Calderon? (Lowry)
    - How many years away are we from being contenders? (at least 2, I'm thinking 2014-2015 season at the earliest)
    - Which of the two point guards benefits our young players the most? (Calderon)
    - Do you think we will be able to afford Kyle Lowry as the starting point guard by 2015 while still being able to pay for DeRozan, Ross, JV, and Davis, and have a solid bench? (Maybe.. will he be looking for Calderon-like money?)

    Those are interesting questions.

    I would add two more:

    - Who is guaranteed to be a Raptor next year? (Lowry)
    - Does Jose even want to remain in Toronto? (I don't know)

    Leave a comment:


  • ebrian
    replied
    That's a good point planetmars. He's been the consummate professional, but why would he show us loyalty as if we shown him a lot of loyalty in the past 6 years?

    I've been thinking about this for awhile now. Lowry, obviously, is a good point guard. If he isn't so 'bull-headed', he could become a great one. But whether he is the right guy for this team right now is hard for me to say. If we were looking at this down the road, as in if we traded for Lowry after Ross and JV had 2 years of experience, there would be no question at all for me that he's the right guy.

    Thing is, Jose Calderon stands the best chance of helping this young team develop right now. That should be clear to everyone over the past 2 weeks. I think Lowry is the type of point guard this team will need down the road. It's clear that Colangelo felt the same way -- he thought we had what it took to be a playoff team with Lowry. What he offered for Lowry makes that crystal clear. But he was wrong, we're not a playoff team and we're probably a couple years away from being a team where people say "these 6-7 teams will make the playoffs while the final spot up-for-grabs between ABC teams". Right now we aren't even in that ABC group.

    Here's a few questions to ponder, my answers in brackets:

    - Who would net more in a trade, a healthy Kyle Lowry or an expiring Jose Calderon? (Lowry)
    - How many years away are we from being contenders? (at least 2, I'm thinking 2014-2015 season at the earliest)
    - Which of the two point guards benefits our young players the most? (Calderon)
    - Do you think we will be able to afford Kyle Lowry as the starting point guard by 2015 while still being able to pay for DeRozan, Ross, JV, and Davis, and have a solid bench? (Maybe.. will he be looking for Calderon-like money?)

    Leave a comment:


  • TheGloveinRapsUniform
    replied
    Trade him if a good deal comes up, if not, let him walk and embrace the cap space.

    No offense to Jose, but the guy is turning 32, with a string of hamstring injuries fairly close behind him. I just dont see him lasting a season being the starter, playing 35-40mins a game, trying to keep up with Demar, Ross, JV and Ed's young legs. I'd rather get a young backup guard who can run around and chase opposing guards.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheGloveinRapsUniform
    replied
    raptors98 wrote: View Post
    Even with our nice 4 game streak, the raps aren't going to do anything this season. If we trade Calderon now, we could get some valuable assets, and maybe still sign him at the end of the season.
    Some reasonable deals I like:

    Package Jose and Bargnani for Kings first rounder (2013 or 2014), Aaron Brooks and Thompson.
    Calderon to Memphis for Wrotten, and Speights
    Calderon to Dallas for 2013 first rounder(might be lotto) and jae crowder

    I especially like the last deal - especially cause it could definitely happen.
    Your potential deals?
    I thought you said reasonable.

    Leave a comment:


  • japetas
    replied
    It will be interesting to see how this team with Jose as starting PG and Bargnani OUT looks against really good team in San Antonio, if they can win it, then I start to think that we don't need any changes except shipping Bargs to pick or something like that...

    Leave a comment:


  • Blasterfi9
    replied
    umm i can think of one with goran dragic resigining with the suns. Im sure theres probably more, not sure if we should rly even consider something like that rly.

    as far as im concerned, if jose wants to stay for something reasonable, he can stay. Sure if some awesome trade comes along than i get it, and i also get it if a team wants to pay him ( and heres were trading him makes sense, the way he's playing he can probably get a pretty damn good contract..) that he leaves. If we retire a player anytime in the near future better be him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Craiger
    replied
    BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    Guys, here is the record of our team with Jose as a starter for at least part of the year (2007-2008 TJ ford started most of the season but then got injured there is a caveate for the 1 500 season)

    2007–08 NBA Eastern Atlantic 2nd 41 41 .500
    2008–09 NBA Eastern Atlantic 4th 33 49 .402
    2009–10 NBA Eastern Atlantic 2nd 40 42 .488
    2010–11 NBA Eastern Atlantic 5th 22 60 .268


    What you need to understand is that Ford, Jack and Bayless, you could argue are just as good. The problem is Jose's game just does not translate into winning over the long term. He cannot defend. period.
    Jose started half the 2007/08 season, he was injured for a good portion of the 2008/09 season (+ Bargnani was forced into the starting line up), Jose started half the 2009/10 season, then the team tanked for the next 2 years. So exactly why is this on Jose?

    It shuoldn't be seen as Jose's fault Colangelo put a greater emphasis on Bargnani over the years and the team progressively got worse.

    As for his defense, yes he is not a good defender. But I posted the numbers earlier and this team has played good defense with Jose on the floor (they are showing this again this year). The bigger problem on defense has been Bargnani, not Jose

    Leave a comment:


  • Mediumcore
    replied
    japetas wrote: View Post
    Totally agree with everything in this post! Why should we need to trade him? We're not gonna get better player for him. At current form he's easily one of the best PG's in the league and you want to trade a guy for Speighs or second rounder Crowder. Jose is 7.5 years younger than Nash, and Nash still has 3 years 9M/yr. Maybe he's not as good as Nash was couple years ago, but you urged BC to sign 38 year guy for about 3-year 30M contract, and now you want to get rid of quite similar player. Cmon.. Even if Jose won't resign with us after season, we could still get better player from FA than Speighs...
    That's exactly what it comes down to. Can you get more for Jose through a trade when his stock is high or is his salary which comes off the books at the end of the season more valuable to the team? Considering the difficulty Toronto has attracting free agents the cap space might not necessarily be more valuable. To his credit Jose is making himself more valuable as a trade chip imo.

    Leave a comment:


  • BallaBalla
    replied
    Raptorboy wrote: View Post
    Totally agree...Jose is a legit starter and a superb team player. He is a great leader and it will be a great loss for the Raptors when he leaves. It would be great to see him stay and finish career with Raps but it will not happen. He has proven himself time after time only to watch management look for other solutions at PG. Only when he leaves will we truly realize what we lost.

    Jose vs. Ford = Jose
    Jose vs Jack = Jose
    Jose vs Bayless = Jose
    Jose vs Lowry = Jose


    If he could not prove himself to management after this what else could he do. The damage is done. We are losing Jose and will regret it.
    Guys, here is the record of our team with Jose as a starter for at least part of the year (2007-2008 TJ ford started most of the season but then got injured there is a caveate for the 1 500 season)

    2007–08 NBA Eastern Atlantic 2nd 41 41 .500
    2008–09 NBA Eastern Atlantic 4th 33 49 .402
    2009–10 NBA Eastern Atlantic 2nd 40 42 .488
    2010–11 NBA Eastern Atlantic 5th 22 60 .268


    What you need to understand is that Ford, Jack and Bayless, you could argue are just as good. The problem is Jose's game just does not translate into winning over the long term. He cannot defend. period.

    Leave a comment:


  • planetmars
    replied
    Puffer wrote: View Post
    Best reason to trade him. Trade him as a rental to a team that is going into the play=offs, and get something back that can help the team. He's got a house here, and his family is here. If the Raps can do something to improve, and can acquire some talent in the off-season, he might be more likely to come back on a new contract.
    I think it will be a lot harder to resign him if he got traded. I don't recall any one ever being traded and then resigned by the team that traded him. It may have happened, but I probably have not paid close enough attention. I do believe that if Jose gets traded he will no longer be a Rap.

    There are several reasons why I want Jose traded, but the main one is a coaching reason. I absolutely hate the 2PG line up, especially in the 4th quarter. If Lowry is our starting PG and is given 35 MPG, then would Jose be happy with 10-15 MPG? I do believe that a PG does their best work when they don't have someone looking over their shoulder on the same team. Competition can be good, but not for the PG spot - not in my opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Puffer
    replied
    Raptorboy wrote: View Post
    ...Only when he leaves will we truly realize what we lost....We are losing Jose and will regret it.
    Best reason to trade him. Trade him as a rental to a team that is going into the play=offs, and get something back that can help the team. He's got a house here, and his family is here. If the Raps can do something to improve, and can acquire some talent in the off-season, he might be more likely to come back on a new contract.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raptorboy
    replied
    japetas wrote: View Post
    Totally agree with everything in this post! Why should we need to trade him? We're not gonna get better player for him. At current form he's easily one of the best PG's in the league and you want to trade a guy for Speighs or second rounder Crowder. Jose is 7.5 years younger than Nash, and Nash still has 3 years 9M/yr. Maybe he's not as good as Nash was couple years ago, but you urged BC to sign 38 year guy for about 3-year 30M contract, and now you want to get rid of quite similar player. Cmon.. Even if Jose won't resign with us after season, we could still get better player from FA than Speighs...
    Totally agree...Jose is a legit starter and a superb team player. He is a great leader and it will be a great loss for the Raptors when he leaves. It would be great to see him stay and finish career with Raps but it will not happen. He has proven himself time after time only to watch management look for other solutions at PG. Only when he leaves will we truly realize what we lost.

    Jose vs. Ford = Jose
    Jose vs Jack = Jose
    Jose vs Bayless = Jose
    Jose vs Lowry = Jose

    If he could not prove himself to management after this what else could he do. The damage is done. We are losing Jose and will regret it.

    Leave a comment:


  • japetas
    replied
    knickz wrote: View Post
    like lawrence frank said," i don't know why they keep bringing in gaurds to replace calderon." why trade a assest? the only way i give up on calderon is if we get eric beldsoe
    Totally agree with everything in this post! Why should we need to trade him? We're not gonna get better player for him. At current form he's easily one of the best PG's in the league and you want to trade a guy for Speighs or second rounder Crowder. Jose is 7.5 years younger than Nash, and Nash still has 3 years 9M/yr. Maybe he's not as good as Nash was couple years ago, but you urged BC to sign 38 year guy for about 3-year 30M contract, and now you want to get rid of quite similar player. Cmon.. Even if Jose won't resign with us after season, we could still get better player from FA than Speighs...
    Last edited by japetas; Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:13 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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