Trade Jose at the height of his value

[ebrian]

Lowry, unlike AB, will be able to adjust to the needs of our team.

I believe this is true.

Why? Lowry and Bargnani have both been in the league now for 7 years. What makes Lowry so special that he's willing to change his game now? Does he have a proven track record of being understanding and excited to do things for the team rather than for himself?

[Puffer]

Thought this was interesting, from the morning roundup on the front of the site http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=412025:
"According to 82games.com, Lowry is letting up a 17.7 PER to opposing point guards and the team is sacrificing 6.7 points per 100 possessions more when he is on the floor versus Calderon who is letting up a 14.0 PER to opposing point guards and the team is sacrificing 4.7 points per 100 possessions LESS when he is on the floor. Chew on that nugget for a second."

[kuzzybear]

Retire Jose's number

The Raps should not trade Jose. he should be kept and hopefully 1) resigned at to a reasonable contract
2) finish his career as a Raptor
3) have his number retired for all he has given the team with all the crap he has had to listen to / read.

PG is the toughest position. we have 2 good ones. Why would we want to weaken the roster by bringing in a weaker player at that spot? I believe all the other players have NO PROBLEM with Jose and what he brings. It's just the bloggers who want to knit pick and can't appreciate what he does for this group. Making others better is a VERY SPECIAL talent.

[Puffer]

Lowry, unlike AB, will be able to adjust to the needs of our team.

I believe this is true.

[psrs1]

Had Detroit been an actual good opponent the game quite likely could have turned out differently.


The play of the Raptors down the stretch highlighted two major concerns offensively with the Raptors:

1) few, if anyone, can regularly create off the dribble.

2) when the shots stop falling, the Raptors often go on long droughts of not scoring. Versus Detroit in the 4th they went from 10:13-7:03 scoring just 2 points until Anderson's 3; then from Anderson's 2nd 3 at 6:24 the Raps go until 2:28 and Jose's 3 before they score again. During that second stretch of time they missed 3-three pointers and a 21-foot jumper and the shot they did make was yet again another long shot.


The Raptors were stone cold from the outside. That happens. When the jumpers are going down, all is good. But when the jumpers fail to fall, what then? What then indeed.


Lowry is a guy who can break in to the heart of the zone defense and get something at the rim something Toronto has lacked for quite some time. I am not ready to cast him off yet - hell, I waited 7 years on Bargnani. I can certainly give Lowry more than 7 weeks especially considering he has been injured 6 straight/11 total and clearly played 12 games not healthy.

Lowry, unlike AB, will be able to adjust to the needs of our team.

[psrs1]

Or Derrick Williams.

Yes. That might work for both teams.

[Fully]

Not going to get into the Lowry/Calderon debate, but I don't think this will really drive Calderon's value up that much in the league. The teams that want him now are the teams who always wanted him (Lakers, Mavs) and they still don't have anything that the Raptors really need or should want. It doesn't matter how good Calderon plays, I don't see teams that have the type of young prospects and high picks that the Raps should be looking for getting into the bidding. If the Raptors don't get a really good deal that makes sense for them, I think they should just hold on to Jose and get the cap relief themselves. If all it's going to be is middle of the road players on longer contracts and low picks coming back, I think there's more value in holding on to Calderon. Jose's doing a good job getting the young guys some easy looks, and I think this season's focus should be all about developing those players going forward.

[Letter N]

I don't think I could disagree with you more regarding Jose's ability to be a successful starter... If you took Jose right now, and dropped him back in time on any of the NBA champions in the last 5 years, he would have been a starter on most.

2012 - Miami - They started: Mario Chalmers... this is a no-brainer
2011 - Dallas - They started: Jason Kidd... in this case, Kidd gets the nod, but Calderon is a superior offensive player at this stage of their careers.
2010 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... Jose, by a lot.
2009 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... rinse, repeat
2008 - Celtics - They started: Rajon Rondo... Rondo is obviously now, a waaayyy better player than Jose, but rookie rondo vs. current Jose? I'd say 2012 Jose. Rondo couldn't hit a shot to save his life as a rookie.

Fact is, Jose's overall skill is very good. I would even say that Jose is even an elite shooter/distributor. He just doesn't have the foot speed or defensive capabilities to actually be considered an elite point guard.

That said, if the right deal comes along, of course, Jose should be traded, just like any other player on this team.

You're horribly wrong about this

2012 - Chalmers because the two best players in the league are bringing the ball up and passing around. Chalmers fit perfectly due to his ability to shoot 3's and aggressive defense, especially jumping passes, because Lebron, Wade, Bosh had it covered if he went for the steal and missed.
2011 - Kidd was an integral part of that team and a true leader, Calderon takes a seat behind JJ because he doesn't add a spark the way Berea does.
2010 - What the hell do the Lakers need from Calderon? Fisher fit perfectly beside Kobe the same way Harper did beside Jordan. You don't need a guy who handles the ball for 17 seconds of the clock when you have Kobe on your team, you need a dependable guy who can bail you out when the double comes on Kobe and plays strong D.
2008 - Rondo is to Calderon what Jordan was to Glen Rice. Sure you put up numbers in one category that weren't that far off but ain't no one in their right mind even making a comparison to who's the better all around player.

[mcHAPPY]

Had Detroit been an actual good opponent the game quite likely could have turned out differently.


The play of the Raptors down the stretch highlighted two major concerns offensively with the Raptors:

1) few, if anyone, can regularly create off the dribble.

2) when the shots stop falling, the Raptors often go on long droughts of not scoring. Versus Detroit in the 4th they went from 10:13-7:03 scoring just 2 points until Anderson's 3; then from Anderson's 2nd 3 at 6:24 the Raps go until 2:28 and Jose's 3 before they score again. During that second stretch of time they missed 3-three pointers and a 21-foot jumper and the shot they did make was yet again another long shot.


The Raptors were stone cold from the outside. That happens. When the jumpers are going down, all is good. But when the jumpers fail to fall, what then? What then indeed.


Lowry is a guy who can break in to the heart of the zone defense and get something at the rim something Toronto has lacked for quite some time. I am not ready to cast him off yet - hell, I waited 7 years on Bargnani. I can certainly give Lowry more than 7 weeks especially considering he has been injured 6 straight/11 total and clearly played 12 games not healthy.

Further to this post, check the shot chart for the 4th quarter: http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotch...meId=400278086


Breakdown:

12 3-point shots (3 made)
2 long 2's (0 made)
5 shots in the key (1 made)

[vino]

I don't think I could disagree with you more regarding Jose's ability to be a successful starter... If you took Jose right now, and dropped him back in time on any of the NBA champions in the last 5 years, he would have been a starter on most.

2012 - Miami - They started: Mario Chalmers... this is a no-brainer
2011 - Dallas - They started: Jason Kidd... in this case, Kidd gets the nod, but Calderon is a superior offensive player at this stage of their careers.
2010 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... Jose, by a lot.
2009 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... rinse, repeat
2008 - Celtics - They started: Rajon Rondo... Rondo is obviously now, a waaayyy better player than Jose, but rookie rondo vs. current Jose? I'd say 2012 Jose. Rondo couldn't hit a shot to save his life as a rookie.

Fact is, Jose's overall skill is very good. I would even say that Jose is even an elite shooter/distributor. He just doesn't have the foot speed or defensive capabilities to actually be considered an elite point guard.

That said, if the right deal comes along, of course, Jose should be traded, just like any other player on this team.

Finally some healthy discussion... let's entertain your comparisons:

The first point I will make is that you have compared only one aspect of the game - and its the offense. You have completely neglected the other 50% and that is the defense. And I would argue that all the players you have listed are better defenders. Yes, even Chalmers.

Second point... well, lets discuss offense. Yes, Chalmers is a no brainer... but so are the other 29 point guards in the entire league on Heat right now. Jose over Chalmers is an upgrade (I'd give you that) of a very small percentage, compared to the other pieces on the Miami roster. Jason Kidd... c'mon he's one of the great point guards in the last decade, at least in my books. I've always loved his game. Took NJ to the finals twice and has not lost much since. Definitely a contributor on the Mavs championship team. Fisher... hm, this is interesting. How many game winners has Fish hit? And that one in the corner against the spurs... do you think Jose would have connected? We do not know... and again, his D is way better. And he's buddies with Kobe and was instrumental on those championship teams. Maybe not in the stats line... Oh, and Rondo - yeah, couldn't hit a shot, but was still very effective offensively distributing to the the big 3.

This is a pg league now with the young Walls, Irving, Curry, Bledsoe (yeah, I like him too!). Plug Jose into all the teams right now. How many would he start on? And yeah, what I am trying to say is that I'd rather have all the above + all the established PGs over Calderon. And yes, Lowry too.

Just to be clear, I do not hate Jose. I enjoy his leadership and value his effort on the court. With his limited athletic abilities he tries hard (unlike #7). I conclude the same; trade him if the right deal comes along; if not, re-sign him for cheap in the off-season.

[mcHAPPY]

Had Detroit been an actual good opponent the game quite likely could have turned out differently.


The play of the Raptors down the stretch highlighted two major concerns offensively with the Raptors:

1) few, if anyone, can regularly create off the dribble.

2) when the shots stop falling, the Raptors often go on long droughts of not scoring. Versus Detroit in the 4th they went from 10:13-7:03 scoring just 2 points until Anderson's 3; then from Anderson's 2nd 3 at 6:24 the Raps go until 2:28 and Jose's 3 before they score again. During that second stretch of time they missed 3-three pointers and a 21-foot jumper and the shot they did make was yet again another long shot.


The Raptors were stone cold from the outside. That happens. When the jumpers are going down, all is good. But when the jumpers fail to fall, what then? What then indeed.


Lowry is a guy who can break in to the heart of the zone defense and get something at the rim something Toronto has lacked for quite some time. I am not ready to cast him off yet - hell, I waited 7 years on Bargnani. I can certainly give Lowry more than 7 weeks especially considering he has been injured 6 straight/11 total and clearly played 12 games not healthy.

[pcrombeen]

Even with our nice 4 game streak, the raps aren't going to do anything this season. If we trade Calderon now, we could get some valuable assets, and maybe still sign him at the end of the season.
Some reasonable deals I like:

Package Jose and Bargnani for Kings first rounder (2013 or 2014), Aaron Brooks and Thompson.
Calderon to Memphis for Wrotten, and Speights
Calderon to Dallas for 2013 first rounder(might be lotto) and jae crowder

I especially like the last deal - especially cause it could definitely happen.
Your potential deals?

YES FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. TRADE HIM!!!

Being a contender is about everybody peaking at the right time. Look at what the Jay's are doing. Their time is now and they realize it.
This is not our year, nor is next year, or the one after. Trade him for as much young talent and picks as you can get. Never mind where we end up in the lottery this year. We won't be bottom three and we're not making the playoffs so that pick is gone and should be irrelevant to our decision making.

[AJ360]

The matter of fact that Calderon has started more games than Lowry has nothing to do with talent or ability to take it to the next level. In this regard Lowry can still develop into an elite pg. He's never going to be CP3 or Rondo (and yeah, Rondo is an elite pg now; I remember only last year ppl here threw him under the bridge). He just does not have the passing/court vision (and not going to learn that); however, he can become a poor's man Westbrook. He isn't far now.

The stat you have brought up is irrelevant. I was referring to the overall skill level of Calderon, and not just with the Raps. Fact is, he wouldn't start on the majority of the teams and he wouln't have started so many games on a good team. I think it's clear. If anything, this stat points to the fact that the Raps have never had a solid point guard since Damon.

I don't think I could disagree with you more regarding Jose's ability to be a successful starter... If you took Jose right now, and dropped him back in time on any of the NBA champions in the last 5 years, he would have been a starter on most.

2012 - Miami - They started: Mario Chalmers... this is a no-brainer
2011 - Dallas - They started: Jason Kidd... in this case, Kidd gets the nod, but Calderon is a superior offensive player at this stage of their careers.
2010 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... Jose, by a lot.
2009 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... rinse, repeat
2008 - Celtics - They started: Rajon Rondo... Rondo is obviously now, a waaayyy better player than Jose, but rookie rondo vs. current Jose? I'd say 2012 Jose. Rondo couldn't hit a shot to save his life as a rookie.

Fact is, Jose's overall skill is very good. I would even say that Jose is even an elite shooter/distributor. He just doesn't have the foot speed or defensive capabilities to actually be considered an elite point guard.

That said, if the right deal comes along, of course, Jose should be traded, just like any other player on this team.

[BallaBalla]

in 2007/08 Toronto played .500 ball exactly.

The team was 28 and 28 with Jose as a starter, and 13 and 13 with TJ as a starter. Where's the correlation? Or do you mean the NEXT season when Colangelo fired Smitch promoted Triano, moved Bargnani into a heavier roll, traded for O'Neal and then Marion, had no back up PG and the team played 5-9 ( 35% winning) without Jose, and 28 - 40 (41%) with him? That correlation?

Again proving what I am saying above. Jose has no impact on the season positively or negatively. That's all I am saying. If you can get a player who can impact the game then he is the best trade chip available besides our young guys.

[BallaBalla]

There is a controversy so its really to late to claim there shouldn't be. But to the bold, the correlation between Jose being on the team and the team not winning is so incredibly low its not even worth arguing. The low emphasis this team has had on him and his role on this team has always made him an under utilized player. Mistakenly so at that. The question should be "can or will this team be able to win with Jose", not "we haven't won with him so he should be traded". (and just to point out saying Jose is like the Nelsons or Chalmers of the league clearly points out that the team therefore can win with him)

I'm not against trading Jose, but I think as someone said before it has to be for the right package. Trading him is not a necessity and its not essential. Its an option. Thats all.

Either I'm not explaining myself or you're not understanding my point. (It's probably the first one to tell u the truth)

What I am saying is exactly what you point out the end. Its an option. But when you evaluate it there is really no debating.

At this point, as far as where we are and who we have at that position we should. And there should be no question based on our performance as a team with him as a starter.

There is a reason why I picked Nelson and chalmers as example and it wasn't so I could make ur point for u. The reason why is because like these players, Jose is not a game changer. I think that he could win if he played on a team with lebron and wade, but who wouldnt? bottom line: He doesn't lose us games or seasons, but he doesn't win them either.

Again this thread is about trading Jose at the height of his value. If you can get a solid player at the wing or a draft pick or whatever for essentially a jameer Nelson, then do it instead of holding on to the idea that we should keep him like he will make a difference. He won't.

I don't see how anyone can argue with this point. We have years of proof.