"The Big 10" - where optimists come to discuss the 2nd half of the Raps season

[Sig]

I just want a trade to happen... for the sake of having a trade happen. Losing is boring, but losing is less boring when you have some new faces doing the losing.

Haha... haha... ha.... ha.. ive been a raptor fan too long...

[mcHAPPY]

Oh really? What's wrong with shaking my head? Is there an alternate meaning to this? How is it different from "I disagree"?

A long long time ago a poster was banned for not adhering to forum policy. Every sentence, comment, thought ended with the dreaded '***'. I believe the ghost of this former poster still lurks on the main page.

[RapthoseLeafs]

I've written off Bargnani as having literally zero value to this team, hence the reason I'm more than willing to "gamble" on a 1st rounder even if it means taking on Thomas.

I don't see any scenario where keeping Bargnani improves this team.

Can't live in fear of busts.

Trading Bargnani could create more issues then it eliminates. At this point it would be best if he came off the Bench, in the 6th man role.

Now even if Andrea was to "buy in" like Lowry kinda does (some days good, some not), then Bargs should give a boost to the team's fortunes. Getting to the 9th place may be the best of both worlds. We clear out our 2013 1st Round pick (hopefully ~ 12 - 14th overall) - so as to not affect future trading - as well as giving the team a goal for next season .... making the play-offs.

Now as far as Andrea is concerned, it seems pretty certain he'll be moved - even though I disagree with such an event. Raptors will still need a Starting PF, as I feel - and it seems Casey acknowledges this (by his rotations) - that Toronto will still need a Big who can start, and handle true Bigs.

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Ed is a good role player, but I think fans are allowing their dislike for AB to impact a proper perspective on Davis. Like last night, a large percentage of his made buckets are of the catch and shoot variety. Defenses have still not adjusted to his left-handed shot (or paid enough attention to him) - evident by how open he's been on a number of shots - but when they do (and it's happening more frequently of late), his Offensive efficiency will be affected.

As to his defense, I continue to believe it's overstated as "top notch", or even reasonably good - Ed's Opponent PER (as PF) is 21.0 while Bargnani has sported an Opponent PER of 15.9 this season (2011-12 was 13.2). I realize one stat doesn't make a whole picture, but empirical evidence (including Casey's rotations with Ed - pre & post Jose starting) reinforces my belief in this perspective. One has to ask why doesn't Ed play more in the 4th Quarter, considering our Big resources are slim?

As to AB, if his offensive struggles weren't so profound at the beginning of this season (Offense normally his strength), then his SIMPLE RATING (see 82games) would be pretty reasonable - and more in tune with last year, when he was #1 on the club.

I also believe AB is better in one-on-one coverage - especially for true Bigs. And as far as Help Defense goes, Ed (while better) still lacks in that department. To me, Ed has not elevated himself enough, to justify a Starters' role. Injuries did that.

In a related matter (relative to the Bigs), I have to say that Amir has impressed. And it shows, with him being #1 in Simple Rating (as per 82games.com). It's that effort of his that has minimized a negative differential for Points in the Paint, although missing 2 Bigs doesn't help.

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As to the 2nd half, I am an optimist. However, putting aside the protected Raptor list (IMO - Jonas & Ross), there are three guys that I would consider moving if the right opportunity comes along:

1) Andrea Bargnani. I'm still curious to see him in the 6th man role, as his troubles (and Raptors) have been accentuated by focusing too much on him, along with grading him based on being the No. 1 pick. Mostly though - for fans - it seems to be his lack of "displayed" emotions that grate on the fan base. Even when he went down with the elbow injury there was nary a yell or look of pain on him. I guess that's why he graded off the charts, before being picked No. 1 - a fact that Smitch endorsed, even though he felt AB should've been handled better.

I disagree with trading him (the return scares the hell out of me, and amnesty should be used on Kleiza), but I think fans & media have made his departure a cause celebre [thanks Matt]. Personally, I believe we are overstating his effect on the winning streak (I say it was less Lowry, more Jose), but whatever, he's pretty much gone. That being said, I wouldn't move him to get back someone performing like him, but with no potential. For me, his potential is just waiting for someone to exorcise that heart. People continue to talk 7 years, but I see only 5 and a bit (the bit being this season's start). Last season he was the best Raptor.

2) Ed Davis. His value is high, and his Rookie contract is ideal for a potential Contender. A role - off the Bench - could be the right tonic for a team needing his talents to boost their play-off odds. As well, Ed can - if needed be - start some games, if the Opponent lacks true Bigs.

[Edit] I have to wonder if Raptors couldn't exchange Ed (and other considerations), for a quality SF. Either one with good upside, or an established SF. Even one with a premium contract that has a couple years left.

3) Kyle Lowry. I keep harping on this, but I'd move KL and do my damndest to resign Jose. And not because he's the guy for that day we become a Contender (gulp!), but because he's the guy who can shape the road that'll get us there.

4) Kleiza. If he could be traded, I'd say yes. Otherwise .... amnesty him. Swallowing his contract wouldn't really impact MLSE. If fact, should LK get picked up, that 4.6 million hit might only be 2 or 3 million cost (at least how I understand the new CBA, and its' amnesty rules).

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All this being said, I do feel optimistic about this team. And contrary to some fan thoughts, I believe this is not a team I would blow up. We have potential stars in Jonas, and possibly Ross. Demar could continue to elevate his game, giving Raptors 3 shots at finding the elusive player we've been seeking.

People keep harping on getting a Star, without exploring if we have one right under our noses.

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[ebrian]

Oh really? What's wrong with shaking my head? Is there an alternate meaning to this? How is it different from "I disagree"?

[mcHAPPY]

I don't even know what you said there but I think it also applies to option 2. Goodness gracious people want more of this?!

I guess there's two sides of this. The one side is that this team sucks and we want to see some changes.

The other side is that this team sucks but they are playing with a lot of inspiration and competing in games. I do understand this side, but people have to understand that this can't be sustained forever and all the inspiration in the world can't propel this level of talent (lack thereof) into a playoff team.

shaking my head is banned here when you type the 3 first letters *** comes up.

[ebrian]

Good way to get around ***

I don't even know what you said there but I think it also applies to option 2. Goodness gracious people want more of this?!

I guess there's two sides of this. The one side is that this team sucks and we want to see some changes.

The other side is that this team sucks but they are playing with a lot of inspiration and competing in games. I do understand this side, but people have to understand that this can't be sustained forever and all the inspiration in the world can't propel this level of talent (lack thereof) into a playoff team.

[Puffer]

If you are going to amnesty Bargnani, you might as well pay Thomas to send him home and save the amnesty for someone else to free up cap space (Kleiza) to use a spare part with cash to chase ANOTHER 1st rd pick.

The whole key is to get picks and prospects (i.e. rookie contracts) because they are cheap. Having deadweight in Thomas is not a big deal because taking him on gives you another $2.5M vs. Bargnani and Raps already have upwards of $5M in cap space plus another $4.6M if Kleiza amnestied.

Couldn't be explained any plainer than this.

[mcHAPPY]

Who the heck picked the second option to evaluate for another 40 games?

Double-you-tee-eff comes to mind, and also, Ess-Em-Ayche and face palm. Are you even watching the games?

Good way to get around ***

[mcHAPPY]

But for 2 and a half seasons? If it gets so bad, do you just buy him out? Isn't that just a waste of money in the end, acquiring a guy with about $9mill/year, then paying him to go home, and have it still count to the cap???

Again, amnestying Bargs makes more sense in my mind over taking back a guy like Thomas. You could always use a spare part and cash to chase a 1st rd pick, though it may be hard to get one in the lottery.

If you are going to amnesty Bargnani, you might as well pay Thomas to send him home and save the amnesty for someone else to free up cap space (Kleiza) to use a spare part with cash to chase ANOTHER 1st rd pick.

The whole key is to get picks and prospects (i.e. rookie contracts) because they are cheap. Having deadweight in Thomas is not a big deal because taking him on gives you another $2.5M vs. Bargnani and Raps already have upwards of $5M in cap space plus another $4.6M if Kleiza amnestied.

[Nilanka]

Who the heck picked the second option to evaluate for another 40 games?

Double-you-tee-eff comes to mind, and also, Ess-Em-Ayche and face palm. Are you even watching the games?

Yeah, I was wondering that myself. "More time" is the last thing a team devoid of talent needs.

[Nilanka]

If you truly believe he has zero value, then do you also believe that carries over to his trade value? If trading him can only bring back negative returns, where the best case is likely a mid-late lottery pick that might not turn out to be anything, isn't it just better in that view to amnesty him??

When I said "value", I wasn't referring to trade value, but value specific to the Raptors. Bargnani has more than worn out his welcome in Toronto, has been through 3 coaches, and has played virtually every position on the floor, and neither scenario has made any lick of difference. He's still a net negative to the team.

Now, that's not to say some GM wouldn't be willing to take a chance on Bargnani, if it meant ridding himself of an unwanted contract (like Thomas).

This is how I view this hypothetical trade: With both Bargnani and Thomas, you have players who have no part in the team's future plans....but only 1 comes with an opportunity to improve the team (i.e. a draft pick).

The amnesty clause would be best saved for Kleiza, a player who I think would be much harder to trade.

[ebrian]

Who the heck picked the second option to evaluate for another 40 games?

Double-you-tee-eff comes to mind, and also, Ess-Em-Ayche and face palm. Are you even watching the games?

[white men can't jump]

You could always pull a Tinsley on him. If he messes up, send him home, and don't welcome him back..... hypothetically speaking of course.

But for 2 and a half seasons? If it gets so bad, do you just buy him out? Isn't that just a waste of money in the end, acquiring a guy with about $9mill/year, then paying him to go home, and have it still count to the cap???

Again, amnestying Bargs makes more sense in my mind over taking back a guy like Thomas. You could always use a spare part and cash to chase a 1st rd pick, though it may be hard to get one in the lottery.

[white men can't jump]

I've written off Bargnani as having literally zero value to this team, hence the reason I'm more than willing to "gamble" on a 1st rounder even if it means taking on Thomas.

I don't see any scenario where keeping Bargnani improves this team.

Can't live in fear of busts.

If you truly believe he has zero value, then do you also believe that carries over to his trade value? If trading him can only bring back negative returns, where the best case is likely a mid-late lottery pick that might not turn out to be anything, isn't it just better in that view to amnesty him??

[mcHAPPY]

I wouldn't take him on, even for a 1st rd pick.

I also think they're nowhere near each other's category, but the degree of Bargs hatred/wanting to blow things up scares me sometimes. There are many many players in the league that could lead to disastrous trade scenarios, and I think Thomas is one of them.

You could always pull a Tinsley on him. If he messes up, send him home, and don't welcome him back..... hypothetically speaking of course.