Raptor's mid-season grade by CnnSi...

[Axel]

First, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but when I see "trading Jose is priority #1", with no qualifier of what the team gets back, I just don't understand. That seems to come across as a need to dump him no matter what, and I fail to see the sense in that. I disagree that getting "anything" is better than "nothing", because I don't see keeping him as nothing.

As far as my point about getting something worthwhile back, let's use any legit contender as an example: a very late 2nd round pick in a weak draft is NOTHING in my books. In my opinion, the development of the young guys we have, especially the rookies, is far better served by Jose facilitating the offense even for a few extra months, than anything to be gained by adding some late 2nd round pick that will likely never sniff an NBA practice floor beyond training camp.

Here's another thing I don't quite understand about the desire among many fans to unload Jose. There's a common opinion that he doesn't serve the future of the Raps because of his age. That's just silly. Jason Kidd, at nowhere near his abilities of the past, ran the point for Dallas to a championship, and he was 7-8 years older than Jose is now. The Knicks are contenders and they're running Kidd and a 35 year old rookie at the point. His age isn't the issue, as much as the talent around him is, and unless they can get a great piece back for him (unlikely), or unless Lowry can suddenly develop a TEAM game, Jose's the best we have to develop this young core of DD, JV, ED, Ross, and Amir (still only 25 and developing further).

If lowry gets his "team" game together, or if they were to get back a promising young PG prospect back, or any promising prospect, I'm all for it, but I don't see simply unqualified unloading him as any kind of priority.

If you want qualifiers for why trading Jose is priority #1, then read any of my other posts on that topic. I don't believe Jose will re-sign unless we overspend for him, which would be a terrible mistake. #1 rule in managing a franchise is that you don't let your assets walk for nothing. Jose's value is as high as it ever will be, and if we don't cash in on that, then we are failing as a franchise.

Don't get confused, Jose is not a better basketball player than Lowry. Jose has more chemistry with Amir because he's played with him more. Jose can't and wont elevate this team from mediocrity, but Lowry could be a part of that going forward. In the Chicago game for example, Jose got multiple assists to Amir on high jumpers. Lowry got Amir the ball down low for dunks. Don't kid yourself into thinking that Lowry can't set people up.

For Jose, it isn't an age thing, that is why he still has value. If you wait until the end of his next contract, it will be an age thing that brings down his value. I read a comment from a GM recently (3-4 weeks ago, so I can't find the link) that the biggest mistake teams make is to not trade expiring deals. If the player is worth it, you get the deal done prior to the season. If he isn't, then you make the move to get the assets to put your franchise in the best position moving forward.

[BasketballCrush]

An offer for Harden with Bargs, DD, Jose & our 1st round pick that we gave up to Houston would have been considered a better deal at the time.

At the time, if you would have told me about this offer, I would have gathered a small posse of raptor fans and we would of cut off the internet to your house. No one knew Harden was capable of leading a franchise.

[golden]

Not every other team is constructed the same as the Raptors. Another team, with a strong defensive center and good, three point shooting SF could use a player like Andrea. If you are not counting on him to carry his full load on D (and let's face it, there are lots of players who don't) and don't count on him as your primary scorer, you might be happy to trade away a player who is a spare part on your team. It doesn't matter what position the Raps get back, cause it's not about shoring up their team with whoever it is, it's about getting rid of Bargs for something. the player coming back could be part of another trade for a position of need or picks or whatever.

+1. Like OKC for example. I was so pissed off when I saw what Presti settled for Harden. In the offseason, Bargs value was still very high, with most people still believing he was our best player. An offer for Harden with Bargs, DD, Jose & our 1st round pick that we gave up to Houston would have been considered a better deal at the time. I know it's all hindsight, but I wanted to draft Drummond as well, which meant we could have thrown JV into the deal as a offer they couldn't refuse. All of those pieces would fit perfectly on OKC. Basically, they would get 3 high=end bench players to replace their 6th man of the year + potential

[enlightenment]

I don't want to do any more babysitting either, hope he blows up somewhere else, not sure why we always have to remind him to rebound and be interested in the game. At this stage he is taking coaching resources away from the rookies.

+10000000000

[BasketballCrush]

I don't want to do any more babysitting either, hope he blows up somewhere else, not sure why we always have to remind him to rebound and be interested in the game. At this stage he is taking coaching resources away from the rookies.

[ezz_bee]

As a fan or a GM I would be open to trading bargnani as I don't see his contribution making that much of a difference either way. We've got 4 very good role players/possible starters in Bargs/Davis/Amir/JV and there is not enough minutes for all four if they are healthy. Three of them seem to be capable two-way players, so bargs is the odd man.

[thead]

my favorite part about Bargnani is when he picks up two fouls a game off charges. Pump fake...drive...and its a charge.

[mcHAPPY]

hmmmm I don't know how to post in everything bargs but just a question, say for some wild reason bargs gets back and plays like he did for those 15 games last season, and we end up sitting in 8th spot right before the deadline. what do we THE FANS want to happen, and what would you do if you were the GM.

Trade him.

Been down this road with:

Bosh before trade deadline and he left for nothing, and

Bargnani's magical ~15 games last season only to see his value now worth nothing.


There is no questioning his talent, it is his desire to reach his full potential.

[Agunn]

hmmmm I don't know how to post in everything bargs but just a question, say for some wild reason bargs gets back and plays like he did for those 15 games last season, and we end up sitting in 8th spot right before the deadline. what do we THE FANS want to happen, and what would you do if you were the GM.

[Agunn]

+1

A team like the Lakers really does seem to be a good fit.

Nash: pass-first PG who makes every player around him better offensively

Howard: best defensive anchor C in the league, who plays down low offensively

Kobe: his dribble-penetration sets up their offense, which relies on good outside shooters to be most effective

MWP: other wing is a lock-down perimeter defender who typically guards the opposition's primary scorer


Back when the Gasol rumors first started, I thought that Bargnani would be a great fit in that lineup and I still believe it. I'm just not convinced that Bargnani & Calderon would be enough of a return for Gasol, but the Lakers could be getting desperate, who knows. From a Toronto perspective, I'm just not convinced that Gasol on this young, rebuilding team (especially without Calderon) is the best idea with the long-term in mind. A multi-trade deal with young players & draft picks coming to Toronto would be absolutely ideal (many Minnesota 3-way options work salary-wise).

[CalgaryRapsFan]

First, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but when I see "trading Jose is priority #1", with no qualifier of what the team gets back, I just don't understand. That seems to come across as a need to dump him no matter what, and I fail to see the sense in that. I disagree that getting "anything" is better than "nothing", because I don't see keeping him as nothing.

As far as my point about getting something worthwhile back, let's use any legit contender as an example: a very late 2nd round pick in a weak draft is NOTHING in my books. In my opinion, the development of the young guys we have, especially the rookies, is far better served by Jose facilitating the offense even for a few extra months, than anything to be gained by adding some late 2nd round pick that will likely never sniff an NBA practice floor beyond training camp.

Here's another thing I don't quite understand about the desire among many fans to unload Jose. There's a common opinion that he doesn't serve the future of the Raps because of his age. That's just silly. Jason Kidd, at nowhere near his abilities of the past, ran the point for Dallas to a championship, and he was 7-8 years older than Jose is now. The Knicks are contenders and they're running Kidd and a 35 year old rookie at the point. His age isn't the issue, as much as the talent around him is, and unless they can get a great piece back for him (unlikely), or unless Lowry can suddenly develop a TEAM game, Jose's the best we have to develop this young core of DD, JV, ED, Ross, and Amir (still only 25 and developing further).

If lowry gets his "team" game together, or if they were to get back a promising young PG prospect back, or any promising prospect, I'm all for it, but I don't see simply unqualified unloading him as any kind of priority.

Fair enough. Whether he gets traded as a playoff rental or is kept, I'd personally like to see him back on the Raptors next season. Perhaps I'm just trying to have my cake and eat it too, when it comes to Calderon! lol

[p00ka]

I believe the thought is, from an asset management perspective, that the Raptors likely aren't a playoff team this year so it would make sense to trade Calderon's expiring contract for any asset (even a 2nd round pick), instead of letting him either walk or re-sign without getting anything extra in return. Even if he were to be traded, he could still be (re)signed by the Raptors in the offseason to return to the team next season. From an asset management standpoint, I think the logic makes perfect sense; something is better than nothing, especially if the net cost is absolutely nothing (ie: if Calderon returns next year).

First, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but when I see "trading Jose is priority #1", with no qualifier of what the team gets back, I just don't understand. That seems to come across as a need to dump him no matter what, and I fail to see the sense in that. I disagree that getting "anything" is better than "nothing", because I don't see keeping him as nothing.

As far as my point about getting something worthwhile back, let's use any legit contender as an example: a very late 2nd round pick in a weak draft is NOTHING in my books. In my opinion, the development of the young guys we have, especially the rookies, is far better served by Jose facilitating the offense even for a few extra months, than anything to be gained by adding some late 2nd round pick that will likely never sniff an NBA practice floor beyond training camp.

Here's another thing I don't quite understand about the desire among many fans to unload Jose. There's a common opinion that he doesn't serve the future of the Raps because of his age. That's just silly. Jason Kidd, at nowhere near his abilities of the past, ran the point for Dallas to a championship, and he was 7-8 years older than Jose is now. The Knicks are contenders and they're running Kidd and a 35 year old rookie at the point. His age isn't the issue, as much as the talent around him is, and unless they can get a great piece back for him (unlikely), or unless Lowry can suddenly develop a TEAM game, Jose's the best we have to develop this young core of DD, JV, ED, Ross, and Amir (still only 25 and developing further).

If lowry gets his "team" game together, or if they were to get back a promising young PG prospect back, or any promising prospect, I'm all for it, but I don't see simply unqualified unloading him as any kind of priority.

[planetmars]

Not every other team is constructed the same as the Raptors. Another team, with a strong defensive center and good, three point shooting SF could use a player like Andrea. If you are not counting on him to carry his full load on D (and let's face it, there are lots of players who don't) and don't count on him as your primary scorer, you might be happy to trade away a player who is a spare part on your team. It doesn't matter what position the Raps get back, cause it's not about shoring up their team with whoever it is, it's about getting rid of Bargs for something. the player coming back could be part of another trade for a position of need or picks or whatever.

I have a feeling that Dwight Howard will be an Atlanta Hawk next year. I would imagine that Atlanta would love to have Howard/Smith/Bargnani. That's like the perfect complement for Andrea. A defensive minded SF with a defensive minded Center that has great help defense. Atlanta has a lot of draft picks as well that they picked up from the Joe Johnson trade.

Maybe something like this:
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ahjlxdr

With a draft pick going back to both Toronto and LA.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Not every other team is constructed the same as the Raptors. Another team, with a strong defensive center and good, three point shooting SF could use a player like Andrea. If you are not counting on him to carry his full load on D (and let's face it, there are lots of players who don't) and don't count on him as your primary scorer, you might be happy to trade away a player who is a spare part on your team. It doesn't matter what position the Raps get back, cause it's not about shoring up their team with whoever it is, it's about getting rid of Bargs for something. the player coming back could be part of another trade for a position of need or picks or whatever.

A team like the Lakers really does seem to be a good fit.

Nash: pass-first PG who makes every player around him better offensively

Howard: best defensive anchor C in the league, who plays down low offensively

Kobe: his dribble-penetration sets up their offense, which relies on good outside shooters to be most effective

MWP: other wing is a lock-down perimeter defender who typically guards the opposition's primary scorer


Back when the Gasol rumors first started, I thought that Bargnani would be a great fit in that lineup and I still believe it. I'm just not convinced that Bargnani & Calderon would be enough of a return for Gasol, but the Lakers could be getting desperate, who knows. From a Toronto perspective, I'm just not convinced that Gasol on this young, rebuilding team (especially without Calderon) is the best idea with the long-term in mind. A multi-trade deal with young players & draft picks coming to Toronto would be absolutely ideal (many Minnesota 3-way options work salary-wise).

[stretch]

Not every other team is constructed the same as the Raptors. Another team, with a strong defensive center and good, three point shooting SF could use a player like Andrea. If you are not counting on him to carry his full load on D (and let's face it, there are lots of players who don't) and don't count on him as your primary scorer, you might be happy to trade away a player who is a spare part on your team. It doesn't matter what position the Raps get back, cause it's not about shoring up their team with whoever it is, it's about getting rid of Bargs for something. the player coming back could be part of another trade for a position of need or picks or whatever.

Bargnani has talent, no doubt, but he is so lacking in grit or heart that his contribution when all is said and is ultimately a negative one. He has the fat contract and he goes through the motions, you know, the "sign and retire" syndrome. It has been 7 years after all.