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CNNSI's view on Colangelo's plan in wake of Gay Deal

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  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post
    My concern with that core is will it win games? Do they have enough outside shooting or open up the lanes for their 3 slashers (Lowry, Demar, Gay)? I don't know the advanced stats on Gay, but we have proven in the past that Demar can't/doesn't pass once he starts his drives. With the defences collapsing, Gay will either need to shoot better or Demar will have the pass better. I'm not sure I'm confident in either one happening.

    If Casey can make it work then great, but I worry that the team build is moving away from the grind it out defence team to the up-tempo team that sells tickets but loses games (I wonder where MLSE get that model from?).
    That's why I hope DeRozan gets traded. Not only would it return a starting PF, but it would allow Fields (short-term) / Ross (long-term) to start at SG. I think a wing combo of Gay/Ross has the potential to be lethal in the future!

    Leave a comment:


  • Gman
    replied
    Fully wrote: View Post
    I don't think this article has anything to do with a bias against the Raptors or Canada. The truth is Rudy Gay has not had a good season - currently ranks 27th(!!!) among small forwards in PER this season and is outside the top 50 for true shooting % for his position alone. Your comments about him being reduced to a spot up shooter are incorrect; he lead the Grizzlies in usage rate and in field goal attempts by a decent margin.

    The biggest problem is that even if he comes in and plays lights out, it's hard to see the team being better than a 7-10 seed and they will have very little options to get over that next hump.
    Yes absolutely, Gay gets a lot of shots dumped on him at the end of the clock. Have you watched a lot of Memphis? And because he's shooting from range which is not his strength his shooting percentage is way down. Not his number of attempts...which if they were in slashing and transition situations would be much higher.

    And you are talking about a team that hasn't had a small forward in a long time and yet we are competitive with really good teams most of the time. Sometimes you just need a slight adjustment either through addition or subtraction to see a profound change. The point I'm making is that everybody is talking out their ass right now until we actually see what the on court production will look like.

    Was I a tad too optimistic? Possibly but I was refuting Valdemort from CNNSI. A guy who was basically saying that our entire team has cancer of the testicles and they need to be put out to pasture and shot...and then split them up selling some of them for dog food and some of them to the glue factory.

    I think out of the two of us, (me and the CNNSI guy), mine has a larger foothold in reality.

    And I appreciate your naivety about the States and how they're grain fed their own superiority since birth and yet are perfectly rationale in evaluating situations like this. And Santa Claus and the Toothfairy want to sell you a bridge.

    Leave a comment:


  • Axel
    replied
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The trade could work to keep both Gay (26) & Lowry (26/27) in Toronto long-term, to grow with Valanciunas (20), Ross (21/22), Amir (25) and Fields (24).

    Obviously DeRozan (23) could still be part of that core group, but I hope he's traded for a starting PF, allowing Johnson to slide back into the backup PF / 3rd-big role.

    Bargnani being traded for anything positive - young prospects, draft picks, expiring contracts - would be a huge win at this point. It would also negate the impact of Gay's contract on the cap situation, making it essentially a moot point in argument against the trade.
    My concern with that core is will it win games? Do they have enough outside shooting or open up the lanes for their 3 slashers (Lowry, Demar, Gay)? I don't know the advanced stats on Gay, but we have proven in the past that Demar can't/doesn't pass once he starts his drives. With the defences collapsing, Gay will either need to shoot better or Demar will have the pass better. I'm not sure I'm confident in either one happening.

    If Casey can make it work then great, but I worry that the team build is moving away from the grind it out defence team to the up-tempo team that sells tickets but loses games (I wonder where MLSE get that model from?).

    Leave a comment:


  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    This bugs me a bit though, because it has clouded the long term future of the team a lot. It could just be a lot of false hope that does nothing in the long run. Morale only matters on the team, and they probably wouldn't like being a mediocre team that gets beat in the 1st round a couple of times.

    A lot will be said with BC's next move. If Bargs is traded and we have to take on a useless, bad salary, we are in the selling hope or false hope cycle. BC will have fans believing we are a good team...just one or two moves from something special, but basically incapable of actually making such a move and taking that next step. If it brings back something the team needs...say a vet with real championship experience, like Pau, or a vet with almost as much experience, but more upside, like Millsap...or relieves capspace (both Pau and Millsap do that, as I'd be ok with Pau's bloated contract for only a season), and if it doesn't bring back a useful player, minimum a 1st rd pick without also tacking on a terrible salary....then we might be on the path to actually winning.

    In my mind, there is actually only one logical reason to make this trade: BC believes Ross and JV will be very special, and that Gay won't decline for another 6-7 years. He wants them to build chemistry and still convince Gay to re-sign as a 2nd or 3rd option for something like $8-10 mill a year...BC knows this sacrifices any chance to build on the current team, but believes this team will struggle to add a significant FA (which is fair, because FA is a crapshoot....usually best reserved for rounding out a roster than building a core), that we'd still be at least mediocre enough without Gay to not have a chance at a high/top lottery pick, and so believes the next chance to re-model is in 3 years or so, anyway, when they'll be deciding what to do with JV and Ross, and clearing money.

    Basically, this deal works if Bargs is turned into anything useful, and anything other than another bad contract. And it works if it convinces Gay to be a stay for less money when he's up for a new deal...If Ross and JV are potential all-stars, and frankly I could see either one being a better all around player than Gay relative to position, they are the future, but the future of the team has to look good for them to want to stay.
    The trade could work to keep both Gay (26) & Lowry (26/27) in Toronto long-term, to grow with Valanciunas (20), Ross (21/22), Amir (25) and Fields (24).

    Obviously DeRozan (23) could still be part of that core group, but I hope he's traded for a starting PF, allowing Johnson to slide back into the backup PF / 3rd-big role.

    Bargnani being traded for anything positive - young prospects, draft picks, expiring contracts - would be a huge win at this point. It would also negate the impact of Gay's contract on the cap situation, making it essentially a moot point in argument against the trade.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fully
    replied
    Gman wrote: View Post
    Wow, talk about writing in a vacuum. I appreciate the glass half empty attitude but at least acknowledge there's some f*cking water in the glass. This is a little ridiculous. Gay is having a down year because Memphis's entire philosophy is to pound it inside to their bigs and then Gay ends up being relegated to a spot up shooter which is not his strength. He's a cutter and slasher extraordinaire...

    Let's acknowledge that we have one of the most athletic teams in the NBA. That Calderon was the wrong half court offence running point guard for the new identity. That Lowry running this offence on the fast break is going to create havoc for other teams. You want an uptempo fun team to watch...we've got it. No question.

    Does Rudy Gay have an onerous contract? Hell yeah...and how else were we going to get a name? I hear Lebron is just pining to come to Toronto. Do you remember the snort of derision that Dwayne Wade gave when he was asked if he would come to Toronto to join Chris Bosh?

    Colangelo has challenges that other GM's don't. Period. Has he made some egregious mistakes? Hell yeah...is it time for him to go? If after a month of this, and the other moves supposedly coming, we're not markedly better than we were, then absolutely...and he knows it.

    We just got a marquis SF for a point guard who's very good (I'm going to miss you Jose) but his numbers were inflated this year because he started as the schedule got soft. Same thing with Davis. We traded when their trade value was at it's absolute highest...and we filled a position that we've been hankering for for years.

    I just find it hilarious that all these pundits who couldn't tell you what the capital of f*cking Canada is all of a sudden take notice when we get a player that's really good. And boy are they pissed. They are raving as if somebody went in to their house and stole their Michael Jordan autographed jersey.

    Instead of taking a tentative wait and see approach to this they are grabbing their writing pitchforks and burning crosses on the lawn. C'mon, these types of screeds have to put into the ethnocentric context from which they're written...

    Now I will go take my meds and contemplate the assassination of the NBA ref corps.
    I don't think this article has anything to do with a bias against the Raptors or Canada. The truth is Rudy Gay has not had a good season - currently ranks 27th(!!!) among small forwards in PER this season and is outside the top 50 for true shooting % for his position alone. Your comments about him being reduced to a spot up shooter are incorrect; he lead the Grizzlies in usage rate and in field goal attempts by a decent margin.

    The biggest problem is that even if he comes in and plays lights out, it's hard to see the team being better than a 7-10 seed and they will have very little options to get over that next hump.

    Leave a comment:


  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Axel wrote: View Post

    That would still be a happy reprieve from our constant lottery ways. Ultimately, I'd be ok being mildly competitive for the next 3 years, then blowing it up if need be. We need some playoff games to boost morale.
    This bugs me a bit though, because it has clouded the long term future of the team a lot. It could just be a lot of false hope that does nothing in the long run. Morale only matters on the team, and they probably wouldn't like being a mediocre team that gets beat in the 1st round a couple of times.

    A lot will be said with BC's next move. If Bargs is traded and we have to take on a useless, bad salary, we are in the selling hope or false hope cycle. BC will have fans believing we are a good team...just one or two moves from something special, but basically incapable of actually making such a move and taking that next step. If it brings back something the team needs...say a vet with real championship experience, like Pau, or a vet with almost as much experience, but more upside, like Millsap...or relieves capspace (both Pau and Millsap do that, as I'd be ok with Pau's bloated contract for only a season), and if it doesn't bring back a useful player, minimum a 1st rd pick without also tacking on a terrible salary....then we might be on the path to actually winning.

    In my mind, there is actually only one logical reason to make this trade: BC believes Ross and JV will be very special, and that Gay won't decline for another 6-7 years. He wants them to build chemistry and still convince Gay to re-sign as a 2nd or 3rd option for something like $8-10 mill a year...BC knows this sacrifices any chance to build on the current team, but believes this team will struggle to add a significant FA (which is fair, because FA is a crapshoot....usually best reserved for rounding out a roster than building a core), that we'd still be at least mediocre enough without Gay to not have a chance at a high/top lottery pick, and so believes the next chance to re-model is in 3 years or so, anyway, when they'll be deciding what to do with JV and Ross, and clearing money.

    Basically, this deal works if Bargs is turned into anything useful, and anything other than another bad contract. And it works if it convinces Gay to be a stay for less money when he's up for a new deal...If Ross and JV are potential all-stars, and frankly I could see either one being a better all around player than Gay relative to position, they are the future, but the future of the team has to look good for them to want to stay.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nilanka
    replied
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Calderon wasn't in the team's long-term plans.

    Davis/Amir are both young PFs with very similar style games - they make each other redundant.

    Gay is only 26, so he is now part of the team's young core, but at a position that was sorely lacking.

    Financial impact aside, the Raps traded a backup PG on an expiring contract and a redundant backup PF for one of the top 10-15 SFs in the league.

    Toronto now has good young core of players at more positions than they did before the trade
    C: Valanciunas
    PF: Johnson
    SF: Gay
    SG: Ross, Fields
    PG: Lowry

    Plus, it's almost guaranteed that the trading isn't done yet. I think Bargnani is 99% gone and I would hope that options to trade DeRozan would also be exhausted. I also hope that Anderson is cashed in while his value is peaked. Once all the moves are done, it will just make this Gay trade look even better.
    Agrede with everything. We traded 2 players we didn't need for 1 we SORELY needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nilanka
    replied
    Fully wrote: View Post
    Within the last 9 months alone, BC has: drafted a wing (Ross), signed another for $20 million over 3 years (Fields), extended another for $40 million over 4 years (Derozan) and now has traded for one making over $54 million over the next two a half seasons (Gay). All moves are justifiable when looking at them independently but as a whole they seem redundant and foolish. The team has increased their ceiling marginally but has sacrificed nearly all of their future flexibility to do so.
    Signing Fields and extending DeRozan were never justifiable.

    Leave a comment:


  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    That doesn't mean a perennial 6-8 seed should be the goal of any franchise.

    People need to understand that this is a GM trying to save his job instead of taking the slow route and waiting for a better opportunity to pounce on. The team had 4 young, developing players, a series of contracts that in 2ish years would be perfect trade bait, and some solid assets like Calderon and Anderson that could have yielded small gains to add to any potential package down the road, but BC didn't have that long to wait so he did what was in his own best interest instead of the team's.

    Don't understand how anyone could be happy about that.
    Calderon wasn't in the team's long-term plans.

    Davis/Amir are both young PFs with very similar style games - they make each other redundant.

    Gay is only 26, so he is now part of the team's young core, but at a position that was sorely lacking.

    Financial impact aside, the Raps traded a backup PG on an expiring contract and a redundant backup PF for one of the top 10-15 SFs in the league.

    Toronto now has good young core of players at more positions than they did before the trade
    C: Valanciunas
    PF: Johnson
    SF: Gay
    SG: Ross, Fields
    PG: Lowry

    Plus, it's almost guaranteed that the trading isn't done yet. I think Bargnani is 99% gone and I would hope that options to trade DeRozan would also be exhausted. I also hope that Anderson is cashed in while his value is peaked. Once all the moves are done, it will just make this Gay trade look even better.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:34 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lark Benson
    replied
    BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    Keep in mind. Even if we becomes a perennial 6-8 seed (and I think we can be better) it would be considered one of the most successful stretches in our franchises history.
    That doesn't mean a perennial 6-8 seed should be the goal of any franchise.

    People need to understand that this is a GM trying to save his job instead of taking the slow route and waiting for a better opportunity to pounce on. The team had 4 young, developing players, a series of contracts that in 2ish years would be perfect trade bait, and some solid assets like Calderon and Anderson that could have yielded small gains to add to any potential package down the road, but BC didn't have that long to wait so he did what was in his own best interest instead of the team's.

    Don't understand how anyone could be happy about that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Axel
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Yeah, I think that's pretty much what I was implying. We'll be a decent, athletic regular season team that should have a chance to win it's share of games.....

    Then we'll be a joke in the playoffs. No team ever feared the Hawks in the playoffs. And they never had anything close to a real shot at contention....they were a borderline playoff team masquerading as something more during the regular season. This is our new best case scenario....
    That would still be a happy reprieve from our constant lottery ways. Ultimately, I'd be ok being mildly competitive for the next 3 years, then blowing it up if need be. We need some playoff games to boost morale.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:20 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    I think the team's ceiling is the Joe Johnson era Hawks. Small improvements year after year as chemistry builds and the roster stays the same, but not enough talent to really break through and too little payroll flexibility to do anything about it.
    Yeah, I think that's pretty much what I was implying. We'll be a decent, athletic regular season team that should have a chance to win it's share of games.....

    Then we'll be a joke in the playoffs. No team ever feared the Hawks in the playoffs. And they never had anything close to a real shot at contention....they were a borderline playoff team masquerading as something more during the regular season. This is our new best case scenario....

    Leave a comment:


  • BallaBalla
    replied
    Gman wrote: View Post
    Wow, talk about writing in a vacuum. I appreciate the glass half empty attitude but at least acknowledge there's some f*cking water in the glass. This is a little ridiculous. Gay is having a down year because Memphis's entire philosophy is to pound it inside to their bigs and then Gay ends up being relegated to a spot up shooter which is not his strength. He's a cutter and slasher extraordinaire...

    Let's acknowledge that we have one of the most athletic teams in the NBA. That Calderon was the wrong half court offence running point guard for the new identity. That Lowry running this offence on the fast break is going to create havoc for other teams. You want an uptempo fun team to watch...we've got it. No question.

    Does Rudy Gay have an onerous contract? Hell yeah...and how else were we going to get a name? I hear Lebron is just pining to come to Toronto. Do you remember the snort of derision that Dwayne Wade gave when he was asked if he would come to Toronto to join Chris Bosh?

    Colangelo has challenges that other GM's don't. Period. Has he made some egregious mistakes? Hell yeah...is it time for him to go? If after a month of this, and the other moves supposedly coming, we're not markedly better than we were, then absolutely...and he knows it.

    We just got a marquis SF for a point guard who's very good (I'm going to miss you Jose) but his numbers were inflated this year because he started as the schedule got soft. Same thing with Davis. We traded when their trade value was at it's absolute highest...and we filled a position that we've been hankering for for years.

    I just find it hilarious that all these pundits who couldn't tell you what the capital of f*cking Canada is all of a sudden take notice when we get a player that's really good. And boy are they pissed. They are raving as if somebody went in to their house and stole their Michael Jordan autographed jersey.

    Instead of taking a tentative wait and see approach to this they are grabbing their writing pitchforks and burning crosses on the lawn. C'mon, these types of screeds have to put into the ethnocentric context from which they're written...

    Now I will go take my meds and contemplate the assassination of the NBA ref corps.
    Obviously this article was wwaayyy too negative. The bottom Line is you're right in that the jury's out.

    If things work out, then this is a great trade because we got the best player in the deal.

    I also think everyone is upset at the change overall. We have gotten so used to mediocrity and everyone loved Jose so much that we are forgetting that we are actually getting better with this trade today.

    Keep in mind. Even if we becomes a perennial 6-8 seed (and I think we can be better) it would be considered one of the most successful stretches in our franchises history.

    Jose is gone and it sucks giving up Ed Davis. But i am going to go out on a limb and say that we will be better

    Leave a comment:


  • Gman
    replied
    Wow, talk about writing in a vacuum. I appreciate the glass half empty attitude but at least acknowledge there's some f*cking water in the glass. This is a little ridiculous. Gay is having a down year because Memphis's entire philosophy is to pound it inside to their bigs and then Gay ends up being relegated to a spot up shooter which is not his strength. He's a cutter and slasher extraordinaire...

    Let's acknowledge that we have one of the most athletic teams in the NBA. That Calderon was the wrong half court offence running point guard for the new identity. That Lowry running this offence on the fast break is going to create havoc for other teams. You want an uptempo fun team to watch...we've got it. No question.

    Does Rudy Gay have an onerous contract? Hell yeah...and how else were we going to get a name? I hear Lebron is just pining to come to Toronto. Do you remember the snort of derision that Dwayne Wade gave when he was asked if he would come to Toronto to join Chris Bosh?

    Colangelo has challenges that other GM's don't. Period. Has he made some egregious mistakes? Hell yeah...is it time for him to go? If after a month of this, and the other moves supposedly coming, we're not markedly better than we were, then absolutely...and he knows it.

    We just got a marquis SF for a point guard who's very good (I'm going to miss you Jose) but his numbers were inflated this year because he started as the schedule got soft. Same thing with Davis. We traded when their trade value was at it's absolute highest...and we filled a position that we've been hankering for for years.

    I just find it hilarious that all these pundits who couldn't tell you what the capital of f*cking Canada is all of a sudden take notice when we get a player that's really good. And boy are they pissed. They are raving as if somebody went in to their house and stole their Michael Jordan autographed jersey.

    Instead of taking a tentative wait and see approach to this they are grabbing their writing pitchforks and burning crosses on the lawn. C'mon, these types of screeds have to put into the ethnocentric context from which they're written...

    Now I will go take my meds and contemplate the assassination of the NBA ref corps.

    Leave a comment:


  • c_bcm
    replied
    BC can't be done. Rudy has to be the center piece for this team moving forward. SO now the build starts around him? So we need a back up pg, and 3 point shooter, and a bulky center. Maybe we can get Maynor, bring back Kapono, and go after Jefferson? Hahahaha oh gad, the gong show continues....

    Leave a comment:

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