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  • ebrian wrote: View Post
    I dunno guys, I appreciate that Bruno has been making strides in the D-League but I don't understand these excuses.. a lot of them would be used to convince a person why a player shouldn't be drafted in the first place. For example:

    - Started playing at a later age than most.
    - Never played in a good/leading basketball program
    - Language barrier
    - very little schooling/advanced training on footwork, position, team offensive and defensive schemes

    Bruno is said to have improved by leaps and bounds, but is that really a big accomplishment? I'm a better driver today because I went with CAA/Young Drivers, as opposed the local driving school run by Chinese immigrants. (If you live in Markham like I do, I think you'll agree there are MAJOR differences).

    Someone said they wanted to see how a Mandarin/Cantonese prospect would fair in the same scenario. I wouldn't. As he begins to grasp the language he'll be able to better understand what the coaches are saying. I mean, this is great feel-good story but it's not necessarily a good basketball story. We're essentially walking along the road less travelled. We never needed to, but we've decided to embark on this unnecessary journey.

    Masai went out and got guys who could contribute right away last year because that's what you're supposed to do when you have a playoff team with a few holes. I didn't understand the Caboclo pick the year before and I still don't. We're now 2 years into this experiment which is fine, there's still time, but I feel like there isn't a lot of it left. My understanding is that the NBA has salary scales which generally scale upwards. Up to this point we've seen a very lost player when playing in the NBA, who has already taken home about 3 million dollars. 2 years from 2 years he'll have taken home $7M for having done absolutely nothing for the Toronto Raptors.
    $7M for 4 years is not bad at all. We paid Yogi Stewart $24M for 4 years. Shit, Salmons was making 8 for one year....yeah we traded for him by getting rid of Gay's ludicrous deal, so a bit different situation...but yeah, Bruno is costing us next to nothing and it's not like the bar is super high. The hope is he's a good role player whose physical tools bring a bit extra. I don't think anyone is making excuses, but as a 15th man it's a lot better than paying Stiemsma or some other journeyman vet with little to no on court value to rot at the end of the bench.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Fri May 13, 2016, 01:12 PM.

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    • Usually when you pick safe, you get exactly what bargain for ie TRoss was Colangelo safe pick while "immature" Drummond was considered a gamble so Colangelo trying to save his job picked the safe pick.

      Delon Wright wasn't exactly a safe pick, he was picked because the Raptors didn't have backup to Lowry at the time and Masai hoped that Wright will catch on quickly (due to being a senior) and be ready for playoffs action. Since they were able to get Cojo that plan has been scrapped. Since Wright was scheduled to be picked at that range, its not a bad pick per se however when you select based on immediate need, you will pass on someone like Bobby Portis who will probably be a solid PF starter sometime by next season.

      By next season either Delon Wright or Cojo may have to step up big to show that if they both play that they can become Lowry's replacement. Of course you cannot replace Lowry's production but considering Lowry will be 31 years old and injuries are catching up with him, its probably an indication that Lowry won't be Lowry anymore . What we are seeing in the playoffs with Lowry is the Lowry that we will probably going to get soon and I don't expect him to be signed again once he becomes a free agent in the summer of 2017.

      Comment


      • I think the safe pick comment refers to drafting a 4 year college player who has developed a lot more of his basketball skills but may not have much ceiling left vs. a raw guy with great athleticism and physical build but way underdeveloped basketball skills which may or may not ever develop into NBA-level skills, i.e. it's a gamble whether the raw player will ever be an NBA player but the guy physically has a very high ceiling if the skills should ever come around. Whether you call that comparison safe vs. gamble or something else, not sure it really matters.

        I agree that I'd always, always rather use the end of the roster on Bruno-type prospects than "insurance vets" who cost more, have no potential future with the team anyway, and very rarely ever get to play. You basically only ever need those guys if you have to go 3 or 4 deep at a position due to injury, but with the interchangeability of positions and the variety of lineup combinations, I don't think you really need those guys at all anymore. May as well take a flier on a long shot with high upside, especially with a D-League team in-house.
        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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        • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
          i think what he meant by safe pick was "not multi year project". seniors are generally accepted as plug and play, comparatively to the freshmen and sophomores of the draft.
          Yeah I should have prefaced my comments about "safe" vs "gamble" as relative to drafting in general. I guess I meant more high floor vs high ceiling or NBA ready vs project.

          Comment


          • That's correct. I'm not talking about safe or not safe, it's more about a guy who can come in and play right away versus a guy who might be able to crack the bench in 4 years. If you think about it, with fairly strong job security Caboclo was actually the safest guy Masai could have found. After all, he was a relative unknown, didn't know the language, hadn't played basketball until 13, had no real training, didn't know any fundamentals. Plenty of excuses to give if nothing comes of it.

            An exec could walk up to Masai and say "Are you sure about this guy?" and all he'd have to say is "Pretty sure, but I'll let you know in 4-5 years".

            Look at guys like Delon Wright, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Rodney Hood or Clint Capella (all taken in the 20s). These are players you expect to begin logging minimal minutes in the first year before a possible expanding role in the 2-3 years after that. The entire evaluation process of these types of players lasts 3-4 years.

            But with Bruno, that evaluation process can't even begin for another (likely) 2 years. Which means you've wasted (from a fiscal standpoint) 3-4 years before you can even start evaluation. He'll have to be in his second contract, that still is in-line with the pay scales (waiting for DanH to pipe in for the minimum that we can pay Bruno in his next contract) before the fair process of evaluation can even begin. My estimation is that he'll have made about $16-18M before fair evaluation process is complete, which is almost like Bruno was a lottery pick.
            your pal,
            ebrian

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            • ebrian wrote: View Post
              But with Bruno, that evaluation process can't even begin for another (likely) 2 years. Which means you've wasted (from a fiscal standpoint) 3-4 years before you can even start evaluation. He'll have to be in his second contract, that still is in-line with the pay scales (waiting for DanH to pipe in for the minimum that we can pay Bruno in his next contract) before the fair process of evaluation can even begin. My estimation is that he'll have made about $16-18M before fair evaluation process is complete, which is almost like Bruno was a lottery pick.
              Minimum you can pay a player is the minimum salary.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • ebrian wrote: View Post

                But with Bruno, that evaluation process can't even begin for another (likely) 2 years. Which means you've wasted (from a fiscal standpoint) 3-4 years before you can even start evaluation. He'll have to be in his second contract, that still is in-line with the pay scales (waiting for DanH to pipe in for the minimum that we can pay Bruno in his next contract) before the fair process of evaluation can even begin. My estimation is that he'll have made about $16-18M before fair evaluation process is complete, which is almost like Bruno was a lottery pick.
                I think you're focusing way too much on the money Bruno is making.

                Besides, $16-18M? That's a pretty inflated number.

                If his 4th year option is picked up by the team Bruno will have brought home $7M in 4 seasons. And Raptors are free to cut bait if they don't think he's progressed far enough. If they want to give him one last shot to prove himself, the qualifying offer for his 5th year is just $3.5M - that would bring the total paid to $10.5M over 5 seasons - or just over $2M a season. Even signing a different washed up vet each year you'd have to pay them the same or more than that.

                And if the Raps sign Bruno an extension for a higher amount, it's fair to assume that his evaluation process has been completed to Masai's satisfaction - to your satisfaction? Perhaps not.

                Short of it is, if Bruno doesn't show any potential in 2018 to help the team win I'm not concerned about Masai not cutting him free over some sunk cost fallacy.
                Last edited by Mess; Fri May 13, 2016, 03:35 PM.
                Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                • Mess wrote: View Post
                  I think you're focusing way too much on the money Bruno is making.

                  Besides, $16-18M? That's a pretty inflated number.

                  If his 4th year option is picked up by the team Bruno will have brought home $7M in 4 seasons. And Raptors are free to cut bait if they don't think he's progressed far enough. If they want to give him one last shot to prove himself, the qualifying offer for his 5th year is just $3.5M - that would bring the total paid to $10.5M over 5 seasons - or just over $2M a season. Even signing a different washed up vet each year you'd have to pay them the same or more than that.

                  And if the Raps sign Bruno an extension for a higher amount, it's fair to assume that his evaluation process has been completed to Masai's satisfaction - to your satisfaction? Perhaps not.

                  Short of it is, if Bruno doesn't show any potential in 2018 to help the team win I'm not concerned about Masai not cutting him free over some sunk cost fallacy.
                  You've kind of made my point. You can pretty much take it to the bank that they won't simply cut bait after 4 years due to his "development", which I explained earlier couldn't have not happened. So he'll be a player that they stashed on their farm team for the cost of $7M. It's quite literally a stash, he has played a total of 66 minute in his career. He most certainly will not receive the same type of treatment as other drafted because of his project status. It won't be until year 4 or 5 before the team starts the fair evaluation process, meaning he won't be treated the same way the team treats Powell and Wright until then.

                  Show me an example of the "washed up vets" that the Raptors have signed for an average of just over $2M a season that contributed nothing to the team. Bruno played 43 minutes this year. Even if you could find a guy who did it one year, you could change him out and try something else. You can't do that with Bruno.

                  Bruno was out there this season making $35,442 per minute. That is the second worst in the league after Nikola Pekovic, By comparison, the Bulls paid Derrick Rose $13,867 and Joakim Noah $21,102 per minute.

                  Darko Milicic, the human victory cigar earned $18066 per minute in his first two seasons, while Bruno has made $45,187 per minute in his two seasons in the NBA.

                  Let me just end with this -- I am by no means a Bruno hater. I would love to see him in the league some day doing well, and would love to see him prove all the doubters wrong (ie: get there before the 4 years are up). For me it is more about the idea of Bruno and other players like him, players who are so incredibly raw that you have to wait half a decade before you can even begin to find out what you've got. These are players who teams throw away time and money upon, hoping they'll be good some day and that the investment pays off. Reality is if it takes that long the investment cannot pay for itself. Let someone else put in the time and sign them when they're ready; that's the way to do it.
                  your pal,
                  ebrian

                  Comment


                  • I be very happy if MU can advertise the upside of Bruno to the level that we can package him with our picks for a star PF.

                    This team is ready to compete now ( with new and improved Val) that we don't need to wait on Bruno.

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                    • ebrian wrote: View Post
                      You've kind of made my point. You can pretty much take it to the bank that they won't simply cut bait after 4 years due to his "development", which I explained earlier couldn't have not happened. So he'll be a player that they stashed on their farm team for the cost of $7M. It's quite literally a stash, he has played a total of 66 minute in his career. He most certainly will not receive the same type of treatment as other drafted because of his project status. It won't be until year 4 or 5 before the team starts the fair evaluation process, meaning he won't be treated the same way the team treats Powell and Wright until then.

                      Show me an example of the "washed up vets" that the Raptors have signed for an average of just over $2M a season that contributed nothing to the team. Bruno played 43 minutes this year. Even if you could find a guy who did it one year, you could change him out and try something else. You can't do that with Bruno.

                      Bruno was out there this season making $35,442 per minute. That is the second worst in the league after Nikola Pekovic, By comparison, the Bulls paid Derrick Rose $13,867 and Joakim Noah $21,102 per minute.

                      Darko Milicic, the human victory cigar earned $18066 per minute in his first two seasons, while Bruno has made $45,187 per minute in his two seasons in the NBA.

                      Let me just end with this -- I am by no means a Bruno hater. I would love to see him in the league some day doing well, and would love to see him prove all the doubters wrong (ie: get there before the 4 years are up). For me it is more about the idea of Bruno and other players like him, players who are so incredibly raw that you have to wait half a decade before you can even begin to find out what you've got. These are players who teams throw away time and money upon, hoping they'll be good some day and that the investment pays off. Reality is if it takes that long the investment cannot pay for itself. Let someone else put in the time and sign them when they're ready; that's the way to do it.
                      I dont think the $/Game measurement means a thing. I also don't think you could put that Bruno money into a player that would even crack our rotation at this point.

                      I have no idea what you're trying to say. Bruno was a 20th pick on a young and up and coming team. He gets no playing time because we are good. In fact we are good enough to go to the ECF. Bruno's salary isn't enough to get us over Cleveland or GS/OKC. Either we will beat them this year or we won't, that pocket change won't make a difference

                      Comment


                      • Bruno may very well be ready for bench NBA minutes next year.

                        Heck, he could play at PG like Giannis if we get his ball handles up as well as his passing. That'd be dangerous to see, right?!? I mean, they guy can already shoot.
                        Axel wrote:
                        Now Cody can stop posting about this guy and we have a poster to blame if anything goes wrong!!
                        KeonClark wrote:
                        We won't hear back from him. He dissapears into thin air and reappears when you least expect it. Ten is an enigma. Ten is a legend. Ten for the motherfucking win.
                        KeonClark wrote:
                        I can't wait until the playoffs start.

                        Until then, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they most often stink

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                        • Katherynne73 wrote: View Post
                          Bruno may very well be ready for bench NBA minutes next year.

                          Heck, he could play at PG like Giannis if we get his ball handles up as well as his passing. That'd be dangerous to see, right?!? I mean, they guy can already shoot.
                          First small ball, and now the new trend will be 7'0 point guards.

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                          • A.I wrote: View Post
                            First small ball, and now the new trend will be 7'0 point guards.
                            More like positionless basketball. Which is what were seeing.

                            I've made huge PG's in 2K before... they're always great ballers and scare the crap out of everyone.
                            Axel wrote:
                            Now Cody can stop posting about this guy and we have a poster to blame if anything goes wrong!!
                            KeonClark wrote:
                            We won't hear back from him. He dissapears into thin air and reappears when you least expect it. Ten is an enigma. Ten is a legend. Ten for the motherfucking win.
                            KeonClark wrote:
                            I can't wait until the playoffs start.

                            Until then, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they most often stink

                            Comment


                            • I love a good Bruno fantasy (lol), but let's be realistic about his potential. At best his passing will be generated off of being able to attack the close out (which is a great skill). Skills which he already possess but is inconsistent

                              Asking him to quarterback an offense is not in his game

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                              • Even asking him to be able to catch and shoot right now seems like a stretch.

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