#FireCasey

[Axel]

1. When did Ujiri begin here? Did he promise instant gratification? Rebuilds usually take five or more years unless you're in a place FA's actually want to play in.
2. Explain your definition of success and is that a fair expectation considering the Raptors current roster?
3. Agreed.
4. What kind of deal do you give him? Why would he come here? Why him over others?
5. No comment.

I'm not asking for instant gratification, but I am asking that we at least appear to be a good team and making strides towards that. Our guard-centric play, with a barrage of poor shots and no defence is not something I want to see moving forward. Casey was on the bubble when Masai showed up. Last year he earned the right to another season, but this season he has proven to not be the coach we need moving forward. I expect the roster will change over the next few years as Masai implements his plan (whatever that is), but having a coach who allows bad habits like we have been seeing this season is not for me.

I would say that success this year would be consistent defensive performances. An offence that moves the ball and takes advantages of his strengths. W/L is kinda secondary, cause you knew that in the Atlantic division, we would basically win the division by default. Showing signs of a sustainable scheme.

I would honestly give Hoiberg any deal he wanted. Brad Stevens to the Celtics type offer. This is a bright young coach with a strong NBA pedigree. For him, leaving his alma matter isn't going to be easy. But how many college coaches get offered to coach a back-to-back division champ, a team that could compete immediately in the playoffs and that has good young pieces (JV) for the future and a GM that is well respected throughout the league. On top of all that, a rabid fan base. I choose Hoiberg over others because of his background (10 yr NBA vet - retired due to medical condition), philosophy (analytically inclines, building both his offensive and defensive schemes around the rim/3 pt line; high motion offence but doesn't micromanage his players - See Page 96/97 of this thread for more details and links about Hoiberg), success (turned Iowa St into a pretty good team despite not being a major talent recruiter - similar to what Stevens did at Butler) and age (isn't a re-tread but isn't out of his element either).

I loved the Brad Stevens hiring in Boston, and they seem equally happy. I see Hoiberg as the next college guy who can make that jump successfully.

[mcHAPPY]

[LIST=1]


Matt, I think the man needs to go when the right guy is available and willing to come here. The next guy needs to be guy they want coaching them in the NBA Finals. This musical chairs bullshit has to end, it makes them look bad around the league. Ujiri didn't hire Casey but he decided to keep Casey and so Casey is on Ujiri. He needs to make damn sure he has The Guy there for the taking before he fires Casey. No more low hanging fruit coaching selections for the Raptors, not if they intend on coming out not looking like total frauds from the very top down.

Totally agree the next guy should be selected with the long term view as a championship head coach.

I agree you want to replace with Casey with more than just a better coach - albeit right now that isn't hard. I feel Casey is doing more harm than good with this current team, at this point. This isn't just because they are 1-9 in last 10. I saw the issues very early and took a lot of heat when the team was 13-2 for expressing them.

The biggest issue I see in the above is the idea of musical chairs. Casey has been coaching Raptors for 4 seasons now. That is a fairly long time by NBA standards. I would agree with that concept if a new coach is brought in and replaced a year later though.


I think there are good candidates out there to replace Casey. If they are willing or able to come to Toronto, that is another matter. But one should never stay in a bad relationship. The Casey-Raptor relationship has turned bad, in my opinion. It isn't helping either party.

[Nilanka]

For me, the biggest risk with keeping Casey is allowing the across-the-board poor decision making to become habitual. The longer Casey lets our guys run wild in a consequence free environment, the harder it will be for the new coach (whoever he is) to undo the damage.

Remember, this isn't a "slump". This is a team that has completely forgotten how to play, with no signs of getting out of it.

[Apollo]

I'm not asking for instant gratification, but I am asking that we at least appear to be a good team and making strides towards that. Our guard-centric play, with a barrage of poor shots and no defence is not something I want to see moving forward. Casey was on the bubble when Masai showed up. Last year he earned the right to another season, but this season he has proven to not be the coach we need moving forward. I expect the roster will change over the next few years as Masai implements his plan (whatever that is), but having a coach who allows bad habits like we have been seeing this season is not for me.

I would say that success this year would be consistent defensive performances. An offence that moves the ball and takes advantages of his strengths. W/L is kinda secondary, cause you knew that in the Atlantic division, we would basically win the division by default. Showing signs of a sustainable scheme.

I would honestly give Hoiberg any deal he wanted. Brad Stevens to the Celtics type offer. This is a bright young coach with a strong NBA pedigree. For him, leaving his alma matter isn't going to be easy. But how many college coaches get offered to coach a back-to-back division champ, a team that could compete immediately in the playoffs and that has good young pieces (JV) for the future and a GM that is well respected throughout the league. On top of all that, a rabid fan base. I choose Hoiberg over others because of his background (10 yr NBA vet - retired due to medical condition), philosophy (analytically inclines, building both his offensive and defensive schemes around the rim/3 pt line; high motion offence but doesn't micromanage his players - See Page 96/97 of this thread for more details and links about Hoiberg), success (turned Iowa St into a pretty good team despite not being a major talent recruiter - similar to what Stevens did at Butler) and age (isn't a re-tread but isn't out of his element either).

I loved the Brad Stevens hiring in Boston, and they seem equally happy. I see Hoiberg as the next college guy who can make that jump successfully.

You make some great points. I can't argue.

Totally agree the next guy should be selected with the long term view as a championship head coach.

I agree you want to replace with Casey with more than just a better coach - albeit right now that isn't hard. I feel Casey is doing more harm than good with this current team, at this point. This isn't just because they are 1-9 in last 10. I saw the issues very early and took a lot of heat when the team was 13-2 for expressing them.

The biggest issue I see in the above is the idea of musical chairs. Casey has been coaching Raptors for 4 seasons now. That is a fairly long time by NBA standards. I would agree with that concept if a new coach is brought in and replaced a year later though.


I think there are good candidates out there to replace Casey. If they are willing or able to come to Toronto, that is another matter. But one should never stay in a bad relationship. The Casey-Raptor relationship has turned bad, in my opinion. It isn't helping either party.

Yeah, Casey has been here for a while now but the perception is everything is constantly changing here. President, GM, coach, "star" players, it's always in motion. Good teams don't go through this so much. They make a choice, its the right choice and they commit to it through the good and bad times if the right things are happening. If they fire Casey and strike out quickly on the next guy then the cycle continues and players continue to perceive that the Raptors is a place where players go to die. If they want to win a title they need to be able to lure in some top notch proven talent and keep it.

[Nilanka]

Yeah, Casey has been here for a while now but the perception is everything is constantly changing here. President, GM, coach, "star" players, it's always in motion. Good teams don't go through this so much. They make a choice, its the right choice and they commit to it through the good and bad times if the right things are happening. If they fire Casey and strike out quickly on the next guy then the cycle continues and players continue to perceive that the Raptors is a place where players go to die.

You could argue that good teams make changes until they find a combination that works. Only then do they stick with it.

[Apollo]

You could argue that good teams make changes until they find a combination that works. Only then do they stick with it.

Right and so the Raptors have never been good, have never been able to make the right choices for its entire existence. If I'm a free agent pro baller I pass on this place and I tell my friends to pass on this place. This appears to be what actually happens.

It amazed me Lowry stayed.

[Jangles]

A 'C' student doesn't have enough time to study for an exam to get an 'A'. Should he not study and settle for a 'C' or put in some time and hopefully get a 'B'? Ideally it would be great to land a Pop like coach (very diffuly and unlikely), but by the looks of it, LITERALLY anyone we hire would be an improvement over our current head coach. If Casey is given more time, the habits the team is consistently showing will just be that much more difficult to break when a competent coach comes aboard.

[Nilanka]

Right and so the Raptors have never been good, have never been able to make the right choices for its entire existence. If I'm a free agent pro baller I pass on this place and I tell my friends to pass on this place. This appears to be what actually happens.

It amazed me with Lowry stayed.

Here's the rub though. Keeping Casey for the sake of continuity, only to see the team limp towards the playoffs and (likely) get eliminated in the 1st round again, doesn't do much to attract free agents either.

[Axel]

Here's the rub though. Keeping Casey for the sake of continuity, only to see the team limp towards the playoffs and (likely) get eliminated in the 1st round again, doesn't do much to attract free agents either.

I dunno, I could see Iverson loving the idea of playing for Casey. ISO shots, not a lot of defence, just the question about practice....

[Apollo]

A 'C' student doesn't have enough time to study for an exam to get an 'A'. Should he not study and settle for a 'C' or put in some time and hopefully get a 'B'? Ideally it would be great to land a Pop like coach (very diffuly and unlikely), but by the looks of it, LITERALLY anyone we hire would be an improvement over our current head coach. If Casey is given more time, the habits the team is consistently showing will just be that much more difficult to break when a competent coach comes aboard.

Right and he's the only coach out there that's mediocre and can't control fifteen guys in a locker room. Shit, let's bring back Smitch for a two year deal then and wait on our guy? Kevin O'Neill anyone?

Here's the rub though. Keeping Casey for the sake of continuity, only to see the team limp towards the playoffs and (likely) get eliminated in the 1st round again, doesn't do much to attract free agents either.

It does not but if they pick the wrong guy and they miss the playoffs next year due to poor implementation of a new system or a system that doesn't work for the roster?

What I'm getting at here is what are the solutions? Axel and Matt seem to be on the right track I guess.

I dunno, I could see Iverson loving the idea of playing for Casey. ISO shots, not a lot of defence, just the question about practice....

AI would actually kill it in this system and probably would give them a legit shot of advancing once or twice in this kind of setup(in his prime). LOL

[Axel]

Right and he's the only coach out there that's mediocre and can't control fifteen guys in a locker. Shit, let's bring back Smitch for a two year deal then and wait on our guy? Kevin O'Neill anyone?

I agree that hiring "anyone" is a bit of hyperbole, but I don't think a new voice is that hard to find. Yes, finding the perfect guy is ideal, but at this point, developing bad habits have more long term consequences than firing a guy who has had 4 years on the job.

[Jangles]

Agreed, anyone is a bit much, but a better coach looks relatively easy to find.

[raptors999]

Again Coaches will not discuss job that are not vacant. Saying there are no options so they need to keep Casey is wrong. Until management commits to a coaching change no coach will express interest. Coaches are fired before replacement can be found

[mcHAPPY]

Yeah, Casey has been here for a while now but the perception is everything is constantly changing here. President, GM, coach, "star" players, it's always in motion. Good teams don't go through this so much. They make a choice, its the right choice and they commit to it through the good and bad times if the right things are happening. If they fire Casey and strike out quickly on the next guy then the cycle continues and players continue to perceive that the Raptors is a place where players go to die. If they want to win a title they need to be able to lure in some top notch proven talent and keep it.

I don't think you stay the same when things are broken.

I don't think you avoid a decision for fear of making the wrong one.

Masai coming on board is hopefully the start of consistency but his stamp is not yet fully on this team. As you've said the team is still rebuilding and that process takes time and change.

[Apollo]

I don't think you stay the same when things are broken.

I don't think you avoid a decision for fear of making the wrong one.

Yes, I agree. I'm just trying to shake it up in here and ask for more than the standard "I hate the play calling, subsititutions, etc, fire the guy". Why does the conversation end there? That's the beginning, not the end.

Firing the guy may always seem logical when you're watching it unfold on TV but that choice is not always made and there are good reasons for that. Stuff we don't hear about until well after. I'm also trying to express this idea.

Again Coaches will not discuss job that are not vacant. Saying there are no options so they need to keep Casey is wrong. Until management commits to a coaching change no coach will express interest. Coaches are fired before replacement can be found

Right and Bosh wasn't talking to LBJ and Wade about joining forces in the second half of Bosh's last season in Toronto. No one does back room dealing in an industry full of sharks. Ditto for college, no tampering, grade forging, or cover ups to be seen there either.