#FireCasey

[Wild-ling#1]

Who said luck? We did outplay them, because they played like crap. They had something like 11 turnovers in the first half that led to 17 pts. You can see it as they had 2 fast break points and we had 14. That was basically the difference in the game, and many of those were from bad turnovers where they made awful passes to launch our break.

We shot the ball about as well as we possibly can, and the only reason we "outplayed" them was because they basically shot themselves in the foot in the first half with those turnovers and played easily one of their worst (if not the worst) games of the season.

I give our guys credit for playing well enough to win, but yeah, we don't win that game if they don't play uncharacteristically sloppy in the first half (and that's not even getting into the difference a sick and visibly struggling Kawhi makes).

The Spurs sure made a push at the end. And with all their weapons and legendary coaching, we held them off.

The fact that "playing well enough to win" against the Spurs, no less, sounds suspiciously like "damning them with faint praise" seems unfair, to me. We've actually been inspiring team meetings, after games with good teams, like the Cavs .. but the narrative remains that, essentially, we got lucky ... it as on them ... not us.

[white men can't jump]

Do I get excited when my team beats a title contender in a close game? Yeah, of course. Why wouldn't I? I'm a fan. I love basketball and I love my team. I enjoy analysis, stats, discussing prospects, team buildings, discussing organizational philosophy, etc. but I do my best not to let it spoil the joy I get from watching my favourite team play my favourite sport.

And, again, I don't agree with the analysis on here that the Raps deserve no credit for any of their wins but every loss is an indictment of every player, coach, and the entire organization. That's bullshit. And I say that not as a fan but as a guy who's watched basketball for 35 years - that's not how the game works.

Yes, because that's exactly what everyone is saying after every win.

Holy fuck this forum sucks balls these days. Even smarter posters are starting to just get drawn into total fucking nonsense.

Analyzing, discussing and criticizing the obvious flaws we see doesn't destroy the joy in every win. You can be happy they won last night against a team that would normally beat us, while also not getting excited because they depended on a very bad first half performance from their opponent. If we're supposedly building for a deep playoff run, it's not exactly exciting or inspiring to see a win against a great team when they have a terrible night. Tells you little to nothing about the team's progress in trying to become a serious contender. You can be happy they won and acknowledge it's not a very telling win.

[A.I]

Well, if the Spurs play to the best of their abilities and the Raptors play to the best of their abilities then who wins every time?

Why is that a question? Spurs all day, everyday. They are one of the best ball moving teams and defensive teams in the league for a reason.

[Barolt]

While acknowledging a quality win last night, isn't it also possible to accept that maybe Lowry's carrying too much of the load again this year and that killed us down the stretch last year? That winning the way we won last night(DeMar hitting 75% of his shots) is unsustainable? Blissful ignorance is bliss, but it's also ignorant.

[Mess]

So what are we suggesting in a nutshell? That we've had a good offense in years past, but outside variables contributed to our lack of playoff success. But this year is different simply because it's this year?

Um, yeah. Every year is different.

Well, if the Spurs play to the best of their abilities and the Raptors play to the best of their abilities then who wins every time?

Does this hypothetical, imaginary game include TJ going for 51 again? aka the best of his ability?

Ok, how about this then? Last night felt great, but let's remind ourselves that it's just 1 of 82, and there's still plenty of room for improvement (from management, to coaching, to starters, to bench) before April.
Fair?

Fair if people do the same for bad losses.

[Snooch]

Do I get excited when my team beats a title contender in a close game? Yeah, of course. Why wouldn't I? I'm a fan. I love basketball and I love my team. I enjoy analysis, stats, discussing prospects, team buildings, discussing organizational philosophy, etc. but I do my best not to let it spoil the joy I get from watching my favourite team play my favourite sport.

And, again, I don't agree with the analysis on here that the Raps deserve no credit for any of their wins but every loss is an indictment of every player, coach, and the entire organization. That's bullshit. And I say that not as a fan but as a guy who's watched basketball for 35 years - that's not how the game works.

It is a MASSIVE generalization to stat that some of the detractors to last nights win are stating that the Raptors deserve NO CREDIT...spare me that.....Obviously they deserve credit...they one....


But....


SAS did play bad....you cannot take that away either.....that makes a difference.

If we beat the Warriors for their first loss of season but they didnt have Steph Curry for the game would you give all the credit to toronto? or say some came from Curry not playing?

[white men can't jump]

The Spurs sure made a push at the end. And with all their weapons and legendary coaching, we held them off.

The fact that "playing well enough to win" against the Spurs, no less, sounds suspiciously like "damning them with faint praise" seems unfair, to me. We've actually been inspiring team meetings, after games with good teams, like the Cavs .. but the narrative remains that, essentially, we got lucky ... it as on them ... not us.

I don't know why you bring up this point. If anything it shows how far from seriously good teams take us. They mostly treat us like a pretender, and I can't say we've really done much of anything to discourage that viewpoint.

Things like "luck", if that's what you want to call it when a team plays bad, can frequently be a factor in the regular season. With all the games, travel schedules, injuries, etc., there are wins you'll get because for whatever reason a team is not able to be at their best. Last night the Spurs had such a night. Awesome, we got a win against a contender. However it's not like last night's game showed we're at their level, it showed we can beat them when they're not at their own normal level. Therefore, as I said, nothing to really get excited about.

[Nilanka]

Um, yeah. Every year is different.

At what point does 'every year is different' become 'fool me twice, shame on me?'

Fair if people do the same for bad losses.

There are plenty of people on this forum who do so.

[Barolt]

Fair if people do the same for bad losses.

Honestly, one of the biggest strengths of our organization the last few years is that we don't take a lot of early season bad losses. What we do, however, is require massive minutes from our best players early in the season which results in bad losses late in the season and disappointing playoff runs.

[white men can't jump]

Honestly, one of the biggest strengths of our organization the last few years is that we don't take a lot of early season bad losses. What we do, however, is require massive minutes from our best players early in the season which results in bad losses late in the season and disappointing playoff runs.

Well, and here you could wonder if play style and system is a factor.

How could Casey reduce minutes for Lowry and DeMar? They're his shot creators and the system doesn't function without ball-dominant players. He can't really reduce their minutes without making strategic adjustments. If he's going to reduce Lowry's minutes especially, they need some sets/plays where they do some different things, either by making other people create (like you know, Scola and JV in the post a bit more) or by reducing the burden on individuals to create (ie more motion and passing).

[Wild-ling#1]

I don't know why you bring up this point. If anything it shows how far from seriously good teams take us. They mostly treat us like a pretender, and I can't say we've really done much of anything to discourage that viewpoint.

Things like "luck", if that's what you want to call it when a team plays bad, can frequently be a factor in the regular season. With all the games, travel schedules, injuries, etc., there are wins you'll get because for whatever reason a team is not able to be at their best. Last night the Spurs had such a night. Awesome, we got a win against a contender. However it's not like last night's game showed we're at their level, it showed we can beat them when they're not at their own normal level. Therefore, as I said, nothing to really get excited about.

Why insist that the Spurs being "not at their own level" had nothing (or little) to do with us? Curry had to play above his own level to beat us just a few nights ago (9-15 from three, for a .666 mark - damn!).

No one is surprised that other people prefer their own views. But your view is still an interpretation of events - not something more.

So I'm pretty excited about the win ... Think there are some things to celebrate ... even beyond the bare fact of it.

[white men can't jump]

Why insist that the Spurs being "not at their own level" had nothing (or little) to do with us? Curry had to play above his own level to beat us just a few nights ago (9-15 from three, for a .666 mark - damn!).

No one is surprised that other people prefer their own views. But your view is still an interpretation of events - not something more.

So I'm pretty excited about the win ... Think there are some things to celebrate ... even beyond the bare fact of it.

Because I have eyes and saw the Spurs make very bad passes that they pretty much never make. There was more than one pass that was not even remotely close to one of their players, made with no real pressure on the passer and were basically passes straight to our D. I can't give us credit for those kinds of plays. Sometimes other teams do just play badly.

Considering those plays led directly to fast break points in the first half in a game where we outscored them in that area by double digits but barely hung on for the win...yeah, it seems like it was a pretty critical factor that had pretty much nothing to do with our performance.

[Mess]

Analyzing, discussing and criticizing the obvious flaws we see doesn't destroy the joy in every win. You can be happy they won last night against a team that would normally beat us, while also not getting excited because they depended on a very bad first half performance from their opponent. If we're supposedly building for a deep playoff run, it's not exactly exciting or inspiring to see a win against a great team when they have a terrible night. Tells you little to nothing about the team's progress in trying to become a serious contender. You can be happy they won and acknowledge it's not a very telling win.

Maybe for some people it does. I mean, none of us here make their (ok very, very few of us here) make their livings based on the success of the team. So if people want to go to bed feeling good after a win and not keep themselves up by worrying if Lowry might break down or there's no way DD shoots that well if Kawhi isn't sick, that's what they want to do. Other feel the opposite. And we meet here to discuss it.



That being said, exciting and fun game to watch. (thanks Kawhi for being sick). The exact circumstances may not be repeatable and I know the Raptors won't always play with that urgency from now on...but it is a little depressing to me how ready and willing some people are to disregard it. Like, "you know if we played them in the Finals they'd beat us?". No shit. Would any game the Raptors could have possibly played change your opinion of them to being a contender?

[Jrice9]

So what are we suggesting in a nutshell? That we've had a good offense in years past, but outside variables contributed to our lack of playoff success. But this year is different simply because it's this year?

No I'm suggesting that i'm not convinced two playoff series are a sign that a Casey offense is going to fail forever.


Things change, matchups change, some of our players change (biggest example is how much better Kyle lowry is) and some luck changes.

My point about Casey is always:

1, I disagree with some in game decisions (JV 4th quarter in the past especially and I disliked the lack of JJ usage particularly last year).

2, Buut the team has largely met or exceeeded expectations especially during the regular season (Which has the much larger sample size than the playoffs where fluky things can happen a bit-clearly we were killed by the Wizards for a whole host of reasons, but that Nets series easily goes either way). Consider the talent, why are we surprised/disappointed by the results. The Raps have outplayed my own internal expectations in terms of regular season wins for pretty much every year of Casey's tenure (I think I had them at 50 last year but they went 1 under and thats with the DeMar injury)

3, I am not convinced that you are necessarily at all getting a better coach and that it is worth at this stage taking that gamble when you can easily get a worse one.
3,

[Barolt]

Jrice:

We're consistently a better early season team than late season team. Lowry and DeRozan are once again in the top 10 in the league in minutes. These two things probably correlate. I see no indications that the path we're headed down this year won't be identical last year, except our early season, where we're running our guys hard, isn't giving us nearly the record it gave us last year, and our division is much tougher.