#FireCasey

[Axel]

I didn't think people would need stats to back up the claim that stars have a tendency to dominate the ball. I know it doesn't happen every game (likely differs by how close the score is) but if someone argues that it's not true, then I would like to see evidence.

There are certainly several examples of some really good teams that have 2 players dominate (high usage).

Unfortunately, there are also several really bad teams that his applies to as well.

Ultimately comes down to the talent in question. Wade/Bosh, Durant/Westbrook are a fair bit different than Aldridge/Lillard and even more different than Kobe/Young or Boogie/Gay.

[golden]

By the quarters?

GS - Klay and Steph
Houston - James and Harden
CLippers - CP3 and Blake
OKC - KD and Russ
Cleveland - Lebron and Love/Kyrie

Oh you were joking....I did think that was way too easy

Haha. Had to read that twice, and then it was like.... LOOL.

But there is a real difference between dominating 'shots' and dominating the ball. At least with GSW, for example, the quick ball movement and man-movement allows lower USG players to stay highly engaged and alert on offense. It helps keep shooters ready and in rhythm, I think. With the Raps, the secondary players aren't even touching the ball and often standing around and watching what Lowry and DD are going to do.

[tDotted]

I have a very loose definition of "elite". A player who could single-handedly win you a game by taking over.

Lowry is the only one who comes close.

DeMar has done it in the past and I wouldn't call him elite.

[Wild-ling#1]

I didn't think people would need stats to back up the claim that stars have a tendency to dominate the ball. I know it doesn't happen every game (likely differs by how close the score is) but if someone argues that it's not true, then I would like to see evidence.

#DeRozanIsNotAStar

(foolish man .... )

[Axel]

Haha. Had to read that twice, and then it was like.... LOOL.

But there is a real difference between dominating 'shots' and dominating the ball. At least with GSW, for example, the quick ball movement and man-movement allows lower USG players to stay highly engaged and alert on offense. It helps keep shooters ready and in rhythm, I think. With the Raps, the secondary players aren't even touching the ball and often standing around and watching what Lowry and DD are going to do.

Rhythm shooters need to be involved to get rhythm.

[Just Is]

Rhythm shooters need to be involved to get rhythm.

Honestly; it's not complicated. At least, I didn't think it was but...

[Wild-ling#1]

Haha. Had to read that twice, and then it was like.... LOOL.

But there is a real difference between dominating 'shots' and dominating the ball. At least with GSW, for example, the quick ball movement and man-movement allows lower USG players to stay highly engaged and alert on offense. It helps keep shooters ready and in rhythm, I think. With the Raps, the secondary players aren't even touching the ball and often standing around and watching what Lowry and DD are going to do.

When Patterson started 0-3, 0-4, others were complaining, but I took the time to write "Just keep shooting, Pat ..." on the game thread. (I imagine it takes courage to do that, if your confidence is low.) So then he goes 0-7 from three ...

But he was involved. So was Johnson: He had nine points in twelve minutes! - but also three turnovers (and three fouls, too, I think) in those twelve minutes.

You can argue that Patterson is cold precisely because he's getting too few touches. Not sure that's fair though. And it raises a "chicken or the egg" problem, of course ... I will say that I hope the coaches can counsel DD and KL to get Ross the ball more, if he's going well. Thought he might have won it for us in overtime, while DD's % was slipping ...

But yeah, ball movement. Just because not everyone is quite ready to (ourselves) sound the bell on Casey, doesn't mean we aren't all worried that JV and Carroll will be under-utilized ...

[OldSkoolCool]

Reading the comments around here i am glad i have taken a step back from overzelous interwebs fan to just regular fan.

Like KHD, i find the games hard to watch and have stopped tuning in for full games, or even at all.

As one of the more nay-sayer posters around here speaking out against Casey and DeRozan...I'm not surprised. The combo of those two guys will never amount to anything and it is time to change the status quo.

Hell, I'd even trade Lowry at the draft (not in season). Bring on the mini rebuild MU, and give me something to actually cheer about other than ugly basketball and first round exits

[golden]

When Patterson started 0-3, 0-4, others were complaining, but I took the time to write "Just keep shooting, Pat ..." on the game thread. (I imagine it takes courage to do that, if your confidence is low.) So then he goes 0-7 from three ...

But he was involved. So was Johnson: He had nine points in twelve minutes! - but also three turnovers (and three fouls, too, I think) in those twelve minutes.

You can argue that Patterson is cold precisely because he's getting too few touches. Not sure that's fair though. And it raises a "chicken or the egg" problem, of course ... I will say that I hope the coaches can counsel DD and KL to get Ross the ball more, if he's going well. Thought he might have won it for us in overtime, while DD's % was slipping ...

But yeah, ball movement. Just because not everyone is quite ready to (ourselves) sound the bell on Casey, doesn't mean we aren't all worried that JV and Carroll will be under-utilized ...

If it was only Patterson, I wouldn't be worried. But it's also guys like Carroll and CoJo who expect to be getting open shots "in rhythm" at a specific time, based on a play call, generated by a ball movement system. They've gone cold, too. With the Raps, it's pretty un-predictable when they are going to receive the ball.

Same thing with rolling bigs receiving the pass on the pick & roll. Bismack complained about that in an article. Basically, we've got guards freelancing and when they get stuck they try to find the open man. Yes, the shooter is open, maybe wide-open, but he's not in rhythm. You see that all the time in the NBA - even a good shooter can miss wide open shots coming off broken plays. And so many Raptor possessions feel like broken plays.

Timing, feel and rhythm is important, especially for spot-up shooters. Steve Kerr was interviewed about how he hated having to come in cold off the bench with the Jordan Bulls and then was expected to knock down an open 3-pter after MJ had dominated the ball for so long. He said it was one of the toughest things for him to do, mentally.

[Barolt]

Looking over stats it's somewhat amusing.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/200768/tracking/passes/
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/tracking/passes/

Lowry and DeMar each make over 30% of their passes to each other, and if you add the passes they make to Scola it equates to over 50% of the passes that each of them throws. Scola in turn makes ~70% of his passes to DeMar and Kyle. Limiting it to the last 5 games(when Ross has been starting) he's at under 9% of DeMar's passes and just over 11% of Lowry's. When there is ball movement, it's between 3 players.

[Wild-ling#1]

If it was only Patterson, I wouldn't be worried. But it's also guys like Carroll and CoJo who expect to be getting open shots "in rhythm" at a specific time, based on a play call, generated by a ball movement system. ....

I'd be surprised if anyone disagrees with this. Makes perfect sense. I tried to intimate as much myself, at the end of my post.

And Demar has been upping his assists (though some of his primary targets are now on the bench). Still, Scola, Patterson, Joseph and Lowry were inhumanly cold for most of the game last night. Vampire cold ...

Anyway, I don't think we really disagree. At least I hope not. You make a good point.

[Barolt]

I'd be surprised if anyone disagrees with this. Makes perfect sense. I tried to intimate as much myself, at the end of my post.

And Demar has been upping his assists (though some of his primary targets are now on the bench). Still, Scola, Patterson, Joseph and Lowry were inhumanly cold for most of the game last night. Vampire cold ...

Anyway, I don't think we really disagree. At least I hope not. You make a good point.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/splits/2016/

Actually, in December, DeMar's minutes are up a touch(36.4 to 37.0) and his usage is up(27.8% to 29.6%) and his assists per game are slightly down(4.0 in November to 3.8 in December).

[golden]

Looking over stats it's somewhat amusing.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/200768/tracking/passes/
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/tracking/passes/

Lowry and DeMar each make over 30% of their passes to each other, and if you add the passes they make to Scola it equates to over 50% of the passes that each of them throws. Scola in turn makes ~70% of his passes to DeMar and Kyle. Limiting it to the last 5 games(when Ross has been starting) he's at under 9% of DeMar's passes and just over 11% of Lowry's. When there is ball movement, it's between 3 players.

And even then, stats don't tell you anything about the 'quality' of that pass. For example, how many times have we seen Demar, or even Lowry, leave their feet and throw a desperate wild pass to whoever they can, after they've been predictably double or triple-teamed. Statistically, that's still a pass, but it's really a broken play with little chance for success. Exaggerating a bit, but the more I think about what I dislike about the Raps offense, it comes down to the observation that too many possessions end in what feels somewhat like a broken play or a forced shot.

[Wild-ling#1]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/splits/2016/

Actually, in December, DeMar's minutes are up a touch(36.4 to 37.0) and his usage is up(27.8% to 29.6%) and his assists per game are slightly down(4.0 in November to 3.8 in December).

I understood that he's passing more this year as compared to seasons past. But getting an assist requires that the recipient of the ball make a fucking shot -

And that's where I think all the legitimate concern about JV, DC, PP and TR comes in. Mind you, if you want to take the position that the shooting of the just-mentioned players is exclusively a function of our offensive system - in a non-chicken or the egg way, mind - then we're truly at an impasse.

Which wouldn't surprise me. And maybe your right.

I'm hoping that they'll get a chance to prove you wrong, though, when we get some players back (... and if Ross can start to feel the love more, too. And maybe success by the others can bring Patterson along as well - I'm really worried for him ... )

[Barolt]

I understood that he's passing more this year as compared to seasons past. But getting asn assist requires that the recipient of the ball make a fucking shot -

You'd have an argument here if our team FG% was down in December. It isn't. We were hitting 35.3 of 81.1 attempts in November, we're at 35.1 of 80.4 attempts per game in December.