#FireCasey

[3inthekeon]

Ok, that was a pretty good breakdown, but a couple of things -

1. a lot of the issues he pointed out was bad decision making by the personnel on the floor as opposed to an inherent inability to execute the scheme. The more the scheme is run, the more that would improve, Id imagine.

2. one of the main flaws in the system that he pointed out was that JV isn't fleet of foot enough to play that hedging game. but I thought RR published an article recently pointing out how JV doesn't hedge, and when he's on the floor, he does fall back and guard the paint.

JV was hedging less than 2% of the time.
Tyler was next lowest at 18%

[Superjudge]

I think that "stiff" ness that you're referring to will get better with time and experience.

I do too. I think the "IQ" part improves, and he has a light on upstairs, he isn't a dull guy. For now though, he's a tease really.

[MACK11]

Ok, that was a pretty good breakdown, but a couple of things -

1. a lot of the issues he pointed out was bad decision making by the personnel on the floor as opposed to an inherent inability to execute the scheme. The more the scheme is run, the more that would improve, Id imagine.

2. one of the main flaws in the system that he pointed out was that JV isn't fleet of foot enough to play that hedging game. but I thought RR published an article recently pointing out how JV doesn't hedge, and when he's on the floor, he does fall back and guard the paint.

Here's an article by Zach Lowe about the defense and offense

The defensive breakdown starts about a quarter way down the page

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/th...s-master-plan/

[white men can't jump]

JV was hedging less than 2% of the time.
Tyler was next lowest at 18%

It's not just about the hedge, it's about how the whole D is set up to react. It's overaggressive...and that doesn't match up well with JV sagging back either, which is a fairly conservative approach.

I lost another chunk of faith in the D when Casey talked about how they wanted the scrambling D late in the Bucks game. They want the chaos, and to try to pressure the other team into mistakes....but mostly it results in the Raps following passes to open guys, and having to close out too hard, or give up rebounds because bigs had to give up interior position to come out and help. Basically, they voluntarily move into a defensive scheme where guys will frequently be out of position and have to expend a stupid amount of energy.

[stooley]

Here's an article by Zach Lowe about the defense and offense

The defensive breakdown starts about a quarter way down the page

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/th...s-master-plan/

thanks for posting these man, I really do appreciate it - ill read it in a bit and edit this post then, or make a new one

[hotfuzz]

Can we make a rule that our record shouldn't be brought up in this thread? Like ever?

I often wonder what people don't see when they simply enjoy the game.

JV is great, he tries hard, cares yadda yadda...but he also isn't really a "player".

Its an intangible.... some guys are just more intuitive, they react faster, they are more focused.

When you are a center, you are either really good or a stiff.... you cant hide because the fine line is kinda cruel that way.

Just watch the games, watch the guy off the ball, if he looks engaged and agile..... then fine, but I believe you might see differently if you're really looking.

In your world, Marc Gasol would be a "stiff" and a "scrub"

[Superjudge]

actually,in my world, marc gasol is what i think JV can be.

did you ever watch marc gasol when he entered the league?

did you think this post through?

I dont think you did actually. You see it isn't about "hating on" a guy. Its just being able to stand back and honestly look at what ya got.

[3inthekeon]

It's not just about the hedge, it's about how the whole D is set up to react. It's overaggressive...and that doesn't match up well with JV sagging back either, which is a fairly conservative approach.

I lost another chunk of faith in the D when Casey talked about how they wanted the scrambling D late in the Bucks game. They want the chaos, and to try to pressure the other team into mistakes....but mostly it results in the Raps following passes to open guys, and having to close out too hard, or give up rebounds because bigs had to give up interior position to come out and help. Basically, they voluntarily move into a defensive scheme where guys will frequently be out of position and have to expend a stupid amount of energy.

Sucks it doesn't match JV yet.

But the system works great with our other 3 bigs:

We've outscored opponents on a per game basis by:

14.5 pts when Hans/Amir play together

12.4 pts when Hans?PPat play together

11.1 pts when Amir/PPat play together

[Mediumcore]

The results are not the issue.

The same issues so many of us are harping on have been brought up long before this stretch of horrible basketball.

I remember when they were 13-2 and in first place being told that was reason enough to relax and/or I didn't know what I was talking about.

Since then they are 20-15.

Since the Portland loss they are 9-9 with all those wins coming against non-playoff teams except a win over Washington in over time and a win over Milwaukee.


There is an evident downward spiral and nothing has been done to change or correct it. In fact, the process is being continuously defended by Casey and he is resorting to laying blame elsewhere - in fact his comments are becoming eerily reminiscent of Colangelo's last season.


I am not sure that firing Casey right now is the answer but his time is up after this season.

But doesn't the hot start through a weak schedule and the 9-9 record since Portland with the wins coming against non-playoff teams prove exactly what you, myself and others whom cautioned the quick start was false gold were saying? That this team isn't as good as what people wanted to think? We knew they were going to fall back to earth once the schedule got tough, so why blame the coach? He had them playing strong defense, and for whatever reason that has gone bad and I agree it falls on his shoulders to get the team back to where it was. But there is time to do that.

I maintain what I always have with respect to Casey...he's here to build a system, and teach the players how to play the correct way until the point comes where the talent level is there to contend. Then by all means replace him with and x's an o's guy that can be a good tactician. Casey is building a foundation for the future, and nothing more.

[Superjudge]

In your world, Marc Gasol would be a "stiff" and a "scrub"

Interesting note, and one I think should bring optimism to the JV thing, this was the book on Marc Gasol after his rookie season... read any similarities?

JV is a stiff right now. so was Gasol. It take sa LONG time for big dudes to get it right.... once they do, if they do, they can be amazing pieces to high level teams, but you have to be patient, and you can't be delusional about where they are in their development. You can't fire coaches for having to be patient as well.

Then:
"He wasn't really a go-to guy for Girona on the offensive end (mainly because of Real Madrid’s double-teaming defense), but especially he doesn't make a great impact on the defensive end. His limited mobility gets exploited in pick-and-roll situations that the opponents throw at him; he's not a great intimidator, he allows smaller opponents to shoot over him; and given his superb size, he's not the best rebounder around."
-Scouting the NBA Rights-Held Players at the 2008 Copa del Rey - 2/19/08

Now:
Much of what we documented about Gasol during his European career has held true during his rookie season in the NBA. Given his lack of vertical explosiveness and lateral quickness, he actually creates a surprising number of defensive turnovers (1.0 STLPG, 1.5 BLKPG); however, he still struggles whenever forced to guard perimeter oriented big men or the pick-and-roll. When guarding ball screens, the Grizzlies seem to hedge most frequently, which often results in Gasol getting caught outside of the three point arc and failing to rotate successfully back to his man. Gasol must improve upon his conditioning to improve his lateral quickness and pick-and-roll defense to avoid becoming a defensive liability moving forward. If he fails in this department and/or the Grizzlies don't improve their interior defense this offseason by surrounding him with more talent, we can expect to see Memphis continue their defensive struggles through another season.

In instances where Gasol is defending the interior, he holds his ground well, although he rarely makes highlight-reel defensive stops. Since he's a step slow, he's a victim of quick-footed bigs possessing great wheel or seal moves which pin him on the backside of the offensive player. And although he'll never really be the type of intimidating, explosive defender the Grizzlies desperately need, Gasol still shows good fundamentals to counter the offensive skill sets of more talented NBA players and keep them out of the lane.

Help side defense is the area in which Gasol must improve his defensive game the most. As we previously wrote, he often allows smaller defenders to shoot over him and lacks lateral quickness - both of which usually equate to subpar defense. Gasol also tends to play lackadaisically off the ball, rarely knocking down cutters and looking to aggressively box out on when shots goo up. If he improves on his work ethic and hustle, we should see him develop into a respectable NBA defender - particularly if he increases his tenacity against more athletic players. Being a member of a struggling defensive system like Memphis' certainly hurts Gasol's numbers, but the addition of another interior presence this offseason should help the team's defensive play.

[mcHAPPY]

Elite athleticism wins championships.... in short supply, elite intellect will do.

he has niether.

he is a good player.

but not great, not a championship level star on his own, none of um are, team is what it is, stop shining about it, stop firing coaches, you're embarrassing Mchappy.

I'm embarrassing? OK. Any possibility of not making all your posts personal attacks?


Casey has been here four years. The team has been better because of increased talent - not because of him.


If you don't see the decline in play, if you don't see the rest of the league figuring out the Raptors, if you don't see the continued questionable in game decisions, if you don't see the lack of accountability, if you don't see the ridiculous over saturated perimeter attack, if you don't see poor shot after poor shot - I don't know what to tell you that will change your mind.


As for JV he is a 22 year old C who is one of the few Raptors who continues to improve. He is neither elite athletic nor is he the smartest player in the league. However he is a very effective player who no one is saying will ever lead the team to a championship or win an MVP. He is a solid basketball player who will help win you games.

[mcHAPPY]

But doesn't the hot start through a weak schedule and the 9-9 record since Portland with the wins coming against non-playoff teams prove exactly what you, myself and others whom cautioned the quick start was false gold were saying? That this team isn't as good as what people wanted to think? We knew they were going to fall back to earth once the schedule got tough, so why blame the coach? He had them playing strong defense, and for whatever reason that has gone bad and I agree it falls on his shoulders to get the team back to where it was. But there is time to do that.

I maintain what I always have with respect to Casey...he's here to build a system, and teach the players how to play the correct way until the point comes where the talent level is there to contend. Then by all means replace him with and x's an o's guy that can be a good tactician. Casey is building a foundation for the future, and nothing more.

Exactly.

Hei s a stepping stone.

[Mr.Z]

We may not have to wait until the playoffs, considering the 8-game stretch coming up. The overall record may look nice on paper, but their record against winning teams is barely above .500, with a couple wins coming against 'winning' teams when they were vulnerable (ie: depleted Memphis).

Then again, Toronto will probably go something like an unexpected 5-3, just to keep this debate going

Memphis wasn't depleted, they had Conley, Gasol and ZBo

[The Great One]

actually,in my world, marc gasol is what i think JV can be.

did you ever watch marc gasol when he entered the league?

did you think this post through?

I dont think you did actually. You see it isn't about "hating on" a guy. Its just being able to stand back and honestly look at what ya got.

Agreed.

It takes time for a big to develop. JV is 22 freakin years old. Problem is, people here wants JV to be the STAR OF THE TEAM immediately. That's what this is all about. He's the "golden boy" of this forum. You say something on the guy, people will call you a "hater" lmao.

And McHappy, eye test says he needs A LOT OF WORK defensively and offensively he needs to be stronger w/ the ball. Eye test also says he's a really good rebounder.

[white men can't jump]

Sucks it doesn't match JV yet.

But the system works great with our other 3 bigs:

We've outscored opponents on a per game basis by:

14.5 pts when Hans/Amir play together

12.4 pts when Hans?PPat play together

11.1 pts when Amir/PPat play together

But there are inherent flaws even with those combos.

The most obvious of which is usually seeing us give up tons of offensive rebounds.

Another being that guys tire themselves out trying to keep it up for long stretches.

Another being that, quite frankly, it is just not that good a defensive system. Lots of risks being taken. And it's never measured out as all that impressive. The best year here it was ranked 10th. The championship year in Dallas it was ranked 8th. And before people talk about "but that's a top 10 defence!!", it was never really elite (top 5ish). That really doesn't scream impressive D to me. If you get effort in any kind of system defensively you'll probably be at worst middle of the pack. We're not getting consistent effort (mostly because of things like injuries and related fatigue, I think), and while they try to execute a system, it's one some guys are just not suited to (and not just Jonas, as it's not great for some of our perimeter guys either).