#FireCasey

[tDotted]

Please detail how they are being coached well. What is it that you are seeing? What is it specifically that you are referring to? Honestly interested to hear your opinion. With examples please (game play, not record). Thanks.

that's what i wanna hear as well. from anyone really

[SamMitchells]

Once this month is over anyone who supports this coach will have their tales between their legs and it will become apparent..

"why does Lou keep jacking??

"Wtf JV is the only one scoring / playing good!!!! Omg Casey BRING HIM BACK!!!"

"Why are we matching the other teams small ball when are guard are 12/50"

"Guys not making shots"

....................


Also I am worried JV might get injured in this defensive system. Dude is being asked to be what his body seems not able to sustain , I get worried everytine he tries to block a deep 2/3

[big boi]

I often wonder what people don't see when they simply enjoy the game.

JV is great, he tries hard, cares yadda yadda...but he also isn't really a "player".

Its an intangible.... some guys are just more intuitive, they react faster, they are more focused.

When you are a center, you are either really good or a stiff.... you cant hide because the fine line is kinda cruel that way.

Just watch the games, watch the guy off the ball, if he looks engaged and agile..... then fine, but I believe you might see differently if you're really looking.

Nope. Totally disagree. He isn't a freak athlete like Drummond but he is a good enough athlete. With good post moves for a young big, decent springs, and improving rebounding intensity an positioning. He also blocks some shots. He also is displaying a steep learning curve despite playing inconsistent minutes (actually they are consistent - he doesn't pkay the 4th). Not sure what you're seeing that makes you not think he looks like a 'player' whatever that means. But I think it is more likely that you just don't know a) what you are looking at, or b) what you are talking about

[big boi]

I often see Jonas making the wrong decision on defense - not terrible things, but just not contesting when he should, playing the pass when he shouldn't, stuff like that.

A lot of stats point to him being an elite individual player, but some important stats point to him being less effective, like net rating -

again, that type of split second decision making will get better with time I think.

Remember. He's 22. Not 28. He isn't what he is going to be yet. So let's stop just talking about what he is, like He's a known quantity now. Because we don't know how good he'll be yet. He is so far from the finished product. Bigs take time to develop. Elite athlete bigs may Contribute quicker (Drummond, de Andre Jordan) but that doesn't mean they will ultimately be better. And just because a big isn't an elite athlete definitely does not mean they can't be an elite big man. See Sabonis, Rick Smits, Patrick Ewing, Hibbert, even Duncan is not a freak, jump out the gym athlete. Nor was Karl Malone. Vucevic is an outstanding centre, better than JV at this stage certainly, but he is not an elite athlete. And JV is a better athlete than a few of the guys mentioned here, and there are many others, as well as being a legit 7 footer with skill and toughness.

[big boi]

In your world, Marc Gasol would be a "stiff" and a "scrub"

Thank you. Both Gasol brothers. Elite big men. Not elite athletes.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Although not directly Raptor-related, there's a video story on ESPN's NBA page that talks about how Cleveland's reliance on ISO plays could hurt them come playoff time, hinting that a more balanced attack would serve them well.

LINK: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:12283382


The clip states that the Cavs are the #1 team as far as % PPG off ISO plays - I'd be curious to discover where the Raptors rank as a team.

[stooley]

So Mack11, I finally got through that article (Im at work lol),

and a few things that I noted:

1.

“That’s where people miss the boat,” Casey says. “They want to make this about some complex system of rotations, which we’ll do, but it’s really about containing the ball and containing your man one-on-one.”

Casey does NOT encourage blow bys on the perimeter.

2.But, on the other hand

There is no magic to transforming that open 3 into a contested one, or preventing it from materializing. Everyone just has to be an inch or a foot better at their job. The defender scurrying over the pick has to make it through clean — Casey calls this “getting skinny” or treating the pick “like a hot stove” — and stay on the ball handler’s hip. The big man guarding the screener has to hit just the right spot — not so far up as to be vulnerable to a blow-by, but not so far back that the ball handler can prod deep into the defense.

Maybe our players are incapable of fighting through a pick - that's one possible criticism that the system isn't geared to the players.

3.Finally,

The Raps are confident they’ll get better with effort and experience. Terrence Ross is still finding his way both on and off the ball. Valanciunas is improving as a rim protector, but it comes in fits and starts; the game still looks too fast for him at times. Amir Johnson is a stabilizer, but he’s had problems changing direction while dealing with a balky ankle.

The coaching staff, as I have mentioned before, expects the Raps to improve with this scheme as time goes on, and their decision making improves.

4. and Zach lowe seems to see something that a lot of people don't:

The team already alters its general scheme for specific matchups, and Casey says they’ll do more of that in the playoffs.

[stooley]

Remember. He's 22. Not 28. He isn't what he is going to be yet. So let's stop just talking about what he is, like He's a known quantity now. Because we don't know how good he'll be yet. He is so far from the finished product. Bigs take time to develop. Elite athlete bigs may Contribute quicker (Drummond, de Andre Jordan) but that doesn't mean they will ultimately be better. And just because a big isn't an elite athlete definitely does not mean they can't be an elite big man. See Sabonis, Rick Smits, Patrick Ewing, Hibbert, even Duncan is not a freak, jump out the gym athlete. Nor was Karl Malone. Vucevic is an outstanding centre, better than JV at this stage certainly, but he is not an elite athlete. And JV is a better athlete than a few of the guys mentioned here, and there are many others, as well as being a legit 7 footer with skill and toughness.

did you miss how I specifically said everything you did in my post - read again

[stooley]

Please detail how they are being coached well. What is it that you are seeing? What is it specifically that you are referring to? Honestly interested to hear your opinion. With examples please (game play, not record). Thanks.

I'm not sure how pointing to the process provides better evidence than pointing to the actual on court results - what you're doing is discounting the only real evidence we have – again, the ONLY real evidence – about whether or not the system is effective or not.

2nd best offense in the entire league - better than the Hawks, better than the Warriors, better than one of Dallas or the Clippers (can't remember which lol).

Trying to say that that doesn't matter is just closed minded and stubborn.

[Other Scott]

So Mack11, I finally got through that article (Im at work lol),

and a few things that I noted:

1.

Casey does NOT encourage blow bys on the perimeter.

2.But, on the other hand

Maybe our players are incapable of fighting through a pick - that's one possible criticism that the system isn't geared to the players.

3.Finally,

The coaching staff, as I have mentioned before, expects the Raps to improve with this scheme as time goes on, and their decision making improves.

4. and Zach lowe seems to see something that a lot of people don't:

I really think the bold is the criticism right now. Dwayne Casey didn't get to be the known as the defensive minded person he is by touting a broken system, or by being a complete idiot and just falling into working teams. But he needs to be able to adjust his system, which I do believe works in the right circumstances, to fit the players he has. And that doesn't seem to be the case right now. Sitting your biggest current offensive/ rebounding threat because he doesn't have the speed and awareness to do the type of defense you want probably is not the answer. There's something that needs to be fixed.

But it's on the players too. Kyle Lowry should not be as terrible on D as he's been, he's previously been a plus defensive player. Terrence Ross looks lost out there 3/4's of the time. Vazquez and Lou just aren't all that good defensively. Amir gets nagging injuries which slow him down. On a case by case basis, the defensive personnel has been poor, and it may just be that the way they are playing that there will be no system which suddenly makes them all better.

I can be swayed either way that the defensive problems are on the coach or the players. It would help if the person doing the swaying wasn't also chewing out Casey for everything else, such as an offense that is the second most efficient in the entire NBA though. It makes me think there may be some bias involved.

[stooley]

I really think the bold is the criticism right now. Dwayne Casey didn't get to be the known as the defensive minded person he is by touting a broken system, or by being a complete idiot and just falling into working teams. But he needs to be able to adjust his system, which I do believe works in the right circumstances, to fit the players he has. And that doesn't seem to be the case right now. Sitting your biggest current offensive/ rebounding threat because he doesn't have the speed and awareness to do the type of defense you want probably is not the answer. There's something that needs to be fixed.

It's important though to separate the parts of the schemes which our players will never be able to do well, and those parts which just haven't been perfected yet.

The criticism in this case would be that a scheme which requires perimeter defenders to fight through screens isn't geared to our players.

I'm not totally sold on this, although its not that far fetched. I'm more in the camp that our players will improve with this over time, especially if they do it a lot.

[3inthekeon]

I really think the bold is the criticism right now. Dwayne Casey didn't get to be the known as the defensive minded person he is by touting a broken system, or by being a complete idiot and just falling into working teams. But he needs to be able to adjust his system, which I do believe works in the right circumstances, to fit the players he has. And that doesn't seem to be the case right now. Sitting your biggest current offensive/ rebounding threat because he doesn't have the speed and awareness to do the type of defense you want probably is not the answer. There's something that needs to be fixed.

But it's on the players too. Kyle Lowry should not be as terrible on D as he's been, he's previously been a plus defensive player. Terrence Ross looks lost out there 3/4's of the time. Vazquez and Lou just aren't all that good defensively. Amir gets nagging injuries which slow him down. On a case by case basis, the defensive personnel has been poor, and it may just be that the way they are playing that there will be no system which suddenly makes them all better.

I can be swayed either way that the defensive problems are on the coach or the players. It would help if the person doing the swaying wasn't also chewing out Casey for everything else, such as an offense that is the second most efficient in the entire NBA though. It makes me think there may be some bias involved.

Lowry used to be good defender before he had to take the huge offensive load he has.

A few days ago I brought up Jimmy Butler this year as an example. I found this yesterday. He admits as much himself.

Thibs and his much copied ICE D are closer to #20 defence Raptors than they are to #11 Wizards.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story...ffling-defense

CRF posted a bit of a story of how GS rewbuilt their D and switched from Hedge to ICE. From the same story comes this gem:

Wing defense is another matter. It's more abstract, harder to measure and harder to price. The Warriors have six players -- Iguodala, Thompson, Green, Barnes, Livingston and Holiday -- who could be the best perimeter defender on another team

No matter the system it needs perimeter D.

[big boi]

did you miss how I specifically said everything you did in my post - read again

Yes I did miss that. I don't think you know what the word "specifically" or "everything" means

[stooley]

Yes I did miss that. I don't think you know what the word "specifically" or "everything" means

Oh! Burn!

[raptors999]

Lowry used to be good defender before he had to take the huge offensive load he has.

A few days ago I brought up Jimmy Butler this year as an example. I found this yesterday. He admits as much himself.

Thibs and his much copied ICE D are closer to #20 defence Raptors than they are to #11 Wizards.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story...ffling-defense

CRF posted a bit of a story of how GS rewbuilt their D and switched from Hedge to ICE. From the same story comes this gem:



No matter the system it needs perimeter D.

Raptor have Vasquez and Lou. Perimeter D doesn't get better than Small and Slow. DD and Lowry overlap a bit there too. Ross is just jumpy.