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  • raptors999 wrote: View Post
    Tyson Chandler looked like garbage on D with Woodson. Coaches can make players look good or look really bad.
    Not really...they won 57 games one year...and then Kidd left alongwith other changes....which goes to underscoring the need for adaptation when personnel change (Bargnani?). Chandler was not so hot in Charlotte either....but thats another story.

    Comment


    • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
      Well, it's going to taper off eventually...unless you think that they can go all the way to 82-0 lol. So the questions is when.

      And you have to at least consider that the improvement we've seen comes from any or all of:

      - Masai improving the roster.

      - Young players getting better.

      - The benefit of roster continuity amongst the core players.

      Personally I think that the year to year improvement we've seen is due to all of these things and nothing special that Casey's done, and only the most disastrous kind of nba head coach would have seen worse results.
      Well obviously I don't think they are going 82 - 0, but I think you have to grade Casey's or any coaches performance by the results they were able to acheive. From where we were to where we are now I think there has been a lot of improvement.

      To speak to your points of why the team improved:

      - How has the personnel improved really? Augustin is gone, so are Stone and Byucks. Hansborough and Hayes play a very small role. GV, 2Pat and GV are major contributors, but what did they do prior to joining Raptors? You can say Casey had as much of a role in their play once they got here as you can say Masaii had anything to do prior to getting them here.

      - Young players have gotten better. Would they have done the same under any coach? We don't know, but we do know they got better under Casey.

      - Continuity is a great thing to have, but DD, Amir, have been here for a long time and did nothing as a team to bring them out of the basement as a team.

      The team won 48 games last season and this season are on pace to match or better. To do that two years in a row shows consistency and that the team is moving in the right direction. It also shows that there is a system in place. One that is working.

      Comment


      • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
        Well obviously I don't think they are going 82 - 0, but I think you have to grade Casey's or any coaches performance by the results they were able to acheive. From where we were to where we are now I think there has been a lot of improvement.

        To speak to your points of why the team improved:

        - How has the personnel improved really? Augustin is gone, so are Stone and Byucks. Hansborough and Hayes play a very small role. GV, 2Pat and GV are major contributors, but what did they do prior to joining Raptors? You can say Casey had as much of a role in their play once they got here as you can say Masaii had anything to do prior to getting them here.

        - Young players have gotten better. Would they have done the same under any coach? We don't know, but we do know they got better under Casey.

        - Continuity is a great thing to have, but DD, Amir, have been here for a long time and did nothing as a team to bring them out of the basement as a team.

        The team won 48 games last season and this season are on pace to match or better. To do that two years in a row shows consistency and that the team is moving in the right direction. It also shows that there is a system in place. One that is working.
        You never ever ever EVER should grade a performance by results. Always by process, unless the result is a Finals appearance, or a Finals win.

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        • Bendit wrote: View Post
          I suppose I have a different view as to how coaches should coach.....your personnel determines the best methods to be used.
          In Dallas, Casey had 3 of the better defensive players at their positions in the league to carry out his plans...Kidd at pg, Marion at sf and most importantly at the time Chandler at c. One of the major flaws in his methods today is trying to have JV adapt to Chandler of the day...making JV execute/hedge to near perimeter defense while also maintaining inthepaint responsibilities. JV does not have Chandler's quickness and probably never will. By that token Chandler was never capable of the offense JV possesses after 2 yrs. in the league.

          One other item re a point you made earlier, much of the improvement in the last 2 seasons imo was due primarily to the Rudy Gay trade netting pretty much the second unit on the team. If Gay were not traded are you sure that the iso heavy offense with Gay & DD leading the charge would not have continued? If so DC might not be here right now. Coaches at this level have to adapt ....core principles excepted.
          I mean, is adapting your system to your personnel even a question open for debate?

          Even so, I remember when JV was drafted, Casey immediately said that he reminded him of Tyson Chandler. So, if they wanted to develop JV into an agile hedge & recover, rim protector, Chandler clone, then why the heck did they have him bulk up so much? The changes in JV's body are startling since his rookie season. If agility for defense was the intent, then the coaching staff has potentially botched JV's development.

          It's really hard to find a stellar ISO post player on offense, who is also nimble for hedge/recover and explosive enough for weak-side rim protection and has enough bulk not to be backed down. Does any player like that even exist, or have ever existed? Bosh, Marc Gasol and a young Tim Duncan might be the closest in the league to having most those qualities.

          Comment


          • Bendit wrote: View Post
            I suppose I have a different view as to how coaches should coach.....your personnel determines the best methods to be used.In Dallas, Casey had 3 of the better defensive players at their positions in the league to carry out his plans...Kidd at pg, Marion at sf and most importantly at the time Chandler at c. One of the major flaws in his methods today is trying to have JV adapt to Chandler of the day...making JV execute/hedge to near perimeter defense while also maintaining inthepaint responsibilities. JV does not have Chandler's quickness and probably never will. By that token Chandler was never capable of the offense JV possesses after 2 yrs. in the league.

            One other item re a point you made earlier, much of the improvement in the last 2 seasons imo was due primarily to the Rudy Gay trade netting pretty much the second unit on the team. If Gay were not traded are you sure that the iso heavy offense with Gay & DD leading the charge would not have continued? If so DC might not be here right now. Coaches at this level have to adapt ....core principles excepted.
            The bolded contradicts what a system should be though. You don't change a system based on the player, you change the players to fit the system. I have no idea what kind of player that Khawai Leonard or Jimmy Butler were in college, but they didn't enter the team and coach think he needs to change the system to fit their strenghts.

            Regarding the Rudy trade...Rudy was traded because he didn't fit the system Casey was trying to employ, and they got players that did fit in. I would think that trade hilighted my point.

            Comment


            • What's this about Casey making JV hedge?

              As of 2 weeks ago, JV hedged just over 1% of the time

              Hansbrough was next lowest on the team at 18%

              Team rate was 24%.
              If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

              Comment


              • golden wrote: View Post
                I mean, is adapting your system to your personnel even a question open for debate?

                Even so, I remember when JV was drafted, Casey immediately said that he reminded him of Tyson Chandler. So, if they wanted to develop JV into an agile hedge & recover, rim protector, Chandler clone, then why the heck did they have him bulk up so much? The changes in JV's body are startling since his rookie season. If agility for defense was the intent, then the coaching staff has potentially botched JV's development.

                It's really hard to find a stellar ISO post player on offense, who is also nimble for hedge/recover and explosive enough for weak-side rim protection and has enough bulk not to be backed down. Does any player like that even exist, or have ever existed? Bosh, Marc Gasol and a young Tim Duncan might be the closest in the league to having most those qualities.
                Your opening sentence: No there shouldn't be at least not at the NBA level...leave it to the NCAA guys retaining their "systems"....but I suspect the good ones recruit to fit their needs...the NBA environment is much too fluid.

                You are right about JV bulking up...I remember pointing it out a couple of times last year....a sea change in his movement levels if you watch some of his Lithuanian clips during the year he was drafted to last year. They somewhat did the same to Gay though that just magnified a Gayian propensity (iso).

                A couple of players come to mind re your last point....Anthony Davis is not there yet but can be soon. Not sure about Cousins and Bogut a few years ago (prior injuries) if I remember correctly seemed to move quite well on offense and defense.

                Comment


                • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                  What's this about Casey making JV hedge?

                  As of 2 weeks ago, JV hedged just over 1% of the time

                  Hansbrough was next lowest on the team at 18%

                  Team rate was 24%.
                  I think it was more about rotations that left him rushing out to cover the 3pt line, which I agree is utter nonsense. Any system that relies on a 7-footer covering the 3pt line is asking for trouble, while certainly not utilizing personnel in a manner that plays to their strengths.

                  Comment


                  • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                    Well obviously I don't think they are going 82 - 0, but I think you have to grade Casey's or any coaches performance by the results they were able to acheive. From where we were to where we are now I think there has been a lot of improvement.
                    Fundamentally disagree with this point with respect to evaluating NBA coaches. Too many examples of coaches' W-L record being directly tied to the talent on their rosters.

                    Mediumcore wrote: View Post

                    - How has the personnel improved really? Augustin is gone, so are Stone and Byucks. Hansborough and Hayes play a very small role. GV, 2Pat and GV are major contributors, but what did they do prior to joining Raptors? You can say Casey had as much of a role in their play once they got here as you can say Masaii had anything to do prior to getting them here.
                    GV damn near led the league in assists with NO. 3Pat showed flashes in Houston, and then was one of what, 6 PFs on the roster in Sacto?

                    Lou is a major addition. We have basically a starting calibre SG coming off the bench.

                    Plus we added JJ. I'd say he's won at least two or three games for us this year.

                    Mediumcore wrote: View Post

                    - Young players have gotten better. Would they have done the same under any coach? We don't know, but we do know they got better under Casey.
                    Talented young players get better naturally.

                    Most NBA players make their biggest leap forward in terms of playing ability in their third year. When you consider how long it took for Derozan to really come into his own, and that we're seeing a similar stunted progression with JV, and that if anything Ross has regressed this year, I'd say that the evidence is beginning to mount to Casey is a poor developer of young talent.

                    Mediumcore wrote: View Post

                    The team won 48 games last season and this season are on pace to match or better. To do that two years in a row shows consistency and that the team is moving in the right direction. It also shows that there is a system in place. One that is working.
                    This can't be proven. It's a nice thought, but the evidence to show that it's a system that's responsible for the Raps success, as opposed to some other factor(s), just doesn't exist.
                    Last edited by JimiCliff; Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:15 PM.
                    "Stop eating your sushi."
                    "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                    "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                    - Jack Armstrong

                    Comment


                    • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                      What's this about Casey making JV hedge?

                      As of 2 weeks ago, JV hedged just over 1% of the time

                      Hansbrough was next lowest on the team at 18%

                      Team rate was 24%.
                      Even if he isn't hedging, is having JV play a ridiculous help-on-everything defense a good use of him?

                      Comment


                      • Bendit wrote: View Post
                        Your opening sentence: No there shouldn't be at least not at the NBA level...leave it to the NCAA guys retaining their "systems"....but I suspect the good ones recruit to fit their needs...the NBA environment is much too fluid.

                        You are right about JV bulking up...I remember pointing it out a couple of times last year....a sea change in his movement levels if you watch some of his Lithuanian clips during the year he was drafted to last year. They somewhat did the same to Gay though that just magnified a Gayian propensity (iso).

                        A couple of players come to mind re your last point....Anthony Davis is not there yet but can be soon. Not sure about Cousins and Bogut a few years ago (prior injuries) if I remember correctly seemed to move quite well on offense and defense.
                        I think the bold is flawed, as San Antonio is the perfect example of a team targeting players (draft, free agency, etc...) that they think will fit their system, as much as for the player's individual skillset. Leonard is the perfect example of this. Had he been drafted earlier by a weaker team that would have tried to make him a bigger part of their overall scheme (on both sides of the ball), there's no way he would be the NBA darling that he is today. He had the skillset to fit SA's model and has been worked into it seamlessly, as SA has done over the years.

                        The key is that the GM (roster) and coach (system) need to be on the same page, about both the approach to game-planning and roster makeup/development. There are several players that don't seem to fit DC's style, yet I'd be surprised if MU were to dump them. Ironically, Ross was widely viewed as DC's pick, yet he gets played out of position and in a role that is rarely designed to fit his skillset.

                        At the end of the day, establishing a system for a team is fine. Personally, I just don't like DC's system, especially when the personnel don't seem suited to play within it.

                        Comment


                        • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                          Fundamentally disagree with this point with respect to evaluating NBA coaches. Too many examples of coaches' W-L record being directly tied to the talent on their rosters.
                          I don't think Mediumcore means just looking at the record. I think he's speaking of the results in terms of record compared to what he believes the talent of the team to be with a different coach.

                          Talented young players get better naturally.

                          Most NBA players make their biggest leap forward in terms of playing ability in their third year. When you consider how long it took for Derozan to really come into his own, and that we're seeing a similar stunted progression with JV, and that if anything Ross has regressed this year, I'd say that the evidence is beginning to mount to Casey is a poor developer of young talent.
                          There are an awful lot of failed talented young players who were just never able to get better strewn throughout the NBA scrap heap.
                          That is a normal collar. Move on, find a new slant.

                          Comment


                          • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                            Well obviously I don't think they are going 82 - 0, but I think you have to grade Casey's or any coaches performance by the results they were able to acheive. From where we were to where we are now I think there has been a lot of improvement.



                            - Young players have gotten better. Would they have done the same under any coach? We don't know, but we do know they got better under Casey.

                            -
                            Hey man. What do you think of GSW firing Marc Jackson when they improved every single year as he remained the head coach?


                            Personally I believe Casey / Marc Jackson are in the exact same boat, except we don't have the same level of talent but that's out of the question.

                            Did the GSW judge MJ based on them improving in wins/loss each year or something else. What is that thing and where do you stand.. Was it the right move?
                            2006-07 NBA Coach of the Year

                            Comment


                            • SamMitchells wrote: View Post
                              Hey man. What do you think of GSW firing Marc Jackson when they improved every single year as he remained the head coach?


                              Personally I believe Casey / Marc Jackson are in the exact same boat, except we don't have the same level of talent but that's out of the question.

                              Did the GSW judge MJ based on them improving in wins/loss each year or something else. What is that thing and where do you stand.. Was it the right move?
                              Great analogy. You and I are on the same page.

                              Comment


                              • Jackson pissed off the GS FO. Demoted one assistant, They had to fire another. Lots of other divisive issues.

                                Nothing like the Casey situation at all, other than being an OK, but not very good coach of a winning team.
                                If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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