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  • SamMitchells wrote: View Post
    I just don't see us winning a championship playing with no offense style other than jacking up contested 3's and fade away jumpers
    The ratings are really good. In fact early in this season it seemed like every game was over 110 points which actually defies every criticism regarding the offense.
    But since its based on the same players doing the same things every game (ISO ball lack of system).
    Then good teams adjust to those typical shots and then what? Well you saw in the past games just exactly what happens.

    I don't buy the whole " we're just cold " . I strongly believe / can see that teams have adjusted defensively and now only time will tell how we will respond.
    Maybe all the 3's will go in like last night every game right?
    You're assuming a lot of things there, which is why we should wait more time before jumping to conclusions. If the offense continues along its crappy pace the rest of the year, then you're probably right. I don't think that will happen, but you aren't any more right than me at this point in time.

    The issue is a lot of people are taking that concept as fact, rather than acknowledging that relies on a massive assumption. Which means that it isn't the most reliable evidence to form opinions on, and definitely not reliable enough to act on.

    I also don't see us ever winning a championship with this current roster, so if that's our standard then Masai better get moving. There's plenty of time to evaluate our entire team and make adjustments as necessary. No point rushing into it.

    In a way that criticism sounds a lot like the reason the Kings fired Malone. "Spurs-ball or no ball".
    Last edited by stooley; Thu Jan 29, 2015, 10:41 AM.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

    Comment


    • stooley wrote: View Post
      So, I edited my post to add a disclaimer lol.

      A lot of complaints compare Casey against an arbitrary "ideal coach" that people have in their minds.

      Play calling out of timeouts was one of Casey's weaknesses in that series. He's not the world's best coach.

      I'm not talking about those things though.

      I'm only talking about the offense's ability to translate to the playoffs, which I sometimes question, but a lot of other people seem to assume is a given, which it isn't.
      Fair enough. But the general consensus is that our offense is too predictable. Our offense is basically based on creating movements to get the ball to our guards in spots where they are "effective". In a 7 games series how easy would it be to figure out where guys like to get the ball? and how easy would it be to make them get the ball in situations they are not comfortable in? I really think this is what's bugging certain fans. including me.

      Comment


      • stooley wrote: View Post
        You're assuming a lot of things there, which is why we should wait more time before jumping to conclusions. If the offense continues along its crappy pace the rest of the year, then you're probably right. I don't think that will happen, but you aren't any more right than me.

        I also don't see us ever winning a championship with this current roster, so if that's our standard then Masai better get moving.
        True ultimately only time will tell. We have the rest of the season / playoffs to observe.

        But mind you, Marc Jackson played a similar ISO heavy ball with the GSW , and they had 2x our talent. Then comes Steve Kerr with a nice play style for his players which involves much ball movement and a better defensive structure and there you have the best team thus far.

        Why aren't the same standards being used here? Am I missing something?
        2006-07 NBA Coach of the Year

        Comment


        • raptors999 wrote: View Post
          Defense and Offense is about gaining control of a game. Carlisle can pressure teams offensively by scoring. A defense is worthless unless there is some offense to support it. Late in games Casey resorts to very low percentage twos which allows teams to jack up threes at the same low % but higher value. A lead can quickly evaporate this way. Contrast to Memphis who scores high % two late punishing any missed shot. Net and controlling pace is always more important than raw numbers.
          We lead the east in points in the paint?
          @Chr1st1anL

          Comment


          • ball4life wrote: View Post
            Fair enough. But the general consensus is that our offense is too predictable. Our offense is basically based on creating movements to get the ball to our guards in spots where they are "effective". In a 7 games series how easy would it be to figure out where guys like to get the ball? and how easy would it be to make them get the ball in situations they are not comfortable in? I really think this is what's bugging certain fans. including me.
            I totally understand that. I also question that.

            But again, the offense seemed to chug along alright in last year's series despite, by the eye test, Brooklyn adjusting perfectly to our schemes.
            "Bruno?
            Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
            He's terrible."

            -Superjudge, 7/23

            Hope you're wrong.

            Comment


            • SamMitchells wrote: View Post
              Maybe all the 3's will go in like last night every game right?
              We didn't run an exceptional amount of ISO last night, and most of the 3's taken came out of good ball movement and drive and kick situation. We did ride Lou's hot hand in the fourth and he subsequently ISO'd quite a bit, but what got us the lead was some passing and open looks for shooters. That's what I want to see more of. Demar was great last night at moving the ball, and his shot selection was better than most nights.

              Of course, we can't rely on 3's going down like they did last night, but if the opportunity comes from ball movement that results in an open look, then there isn't much to complain about in terms of the shot selection. That's certainly more preferable to the ISO pull up 3 off the dribble. Also, SAC's defense was pretty poor last night and one would have to basically be blind not to see the passing lanes.

              Comment


              • SamMitchells wrote: View Post
                True ultimately only time will tell. We have the rest of the season / playoffs to observe.

                But mind you, Marc Jackson played a similar ISO heavy ball with the GSW , and they had 2x our talent. Then comes Steve Kerr with a nice play style for his players which involves much ball movement and a better defensive structure and there you have the best team thus far.

                Why aren't the same standards being used here? Am I missing something?
                Marc Jackson wasn't fired for his heavy use of ISO though. He was fired for clashing with management and refusing to accept the use of advanced statistics.

                The ball movement has been nice in GS, but a pretty big part of their success has been the emergence of Draymond Green and Harrison Barnes, two third year players, and the big step taken by Klay Thompson.
                "Bruno?
                Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                He's terrible."

                -Superjudge, 7/23

                Hope you're wrong.

                Comment


                • Based on watching opposing feeds, the Raps have a reputation for being a team that will "shoot you back into games". In other words, we're a bunch of chuckers who can't tell good shots from bad ones. No Raptor lead is safe.

                  This sentiment was echoed by the Kings announcers last night.

                  Comment


                  • stooley wrote: View Post
                    I totally understand that. I also question that.

                    But again, the offense seemed to chug along alright in last year's series despite, by the eye test, Brooklyn adjusting perfectly to our schemes.
                    Yes I agree we managed to compete toe to toe, but put it this way; had we had a different offensive scheme, could we have won the series? I would like to think yes we could have.

                    Comment


                    • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                      We saw what happens to an ISO heavy offense last year in the playoffs.

                      The team played a much more team oriented approach last year but once the playoffs started it turned ISO based. I remember losing my mind over the "my turn, your turn" and the need to make the hockey assist. I believe I typed those things hundreds of times over the course of the 7 games.


                      I believe we'll experience the same fate this playoffs. Any time your offense relies on 5 guys and 3 zebras, you're in trouble. Zebras are known to struggle to forcibly blow in to a whistle when needed. They are the most unreliable of the animal kingdom.
                      We lead the East in points in the paint. Were 9th in 3s made. That seems like a sustainable brand of basketball to me.
                      @Chr1st1anL

                      Comment


                      • stooley wrote: View Post
                        Marc Jackson wasn't fired for his heavy use of ISO though. He was fired for clashing with management and refusing to accept the use of advanced statistics.

                        The ball movement has been nice in GS, but a pretty big part of their success has been the emergence of Draymond Green and Harrison Barnes, two third year players, and the big step taken by Klay Thompson.
                        After reading a few articles. It wasn't simply only issues with staff, though I can imagine what a big problem that would be.
                        X's and O's were mentioned and were obviously a problem.
                        Casey is not a tactician.

                        At least were winning the games we should be winning. I ain't mad
                        2006-07 NBA Coach of the Year

                        Comment


                        • Lot of talk of us taking contested 3's.

                          What % of our 3's are contested?

                          How does that compare to other teams in the league?

                          Anyone know a site that provides this info, that isn't behind a paywall?
                          If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                          Comment


                          • #FireCasey

                            3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                            Lot of talk of us taking contested 3's.

                            What % of our 3's are contested?

                            How does that compare to other teams in the league?

                            Anyone know a site that provides this info, that isn't behind a paywall?
                            I'm not sure but it's more or less the ball handlers waste 10-16 seconds off the click by making really useless passes ( due to no play) then end up just throwing it to Lou or KL to take a 3 deep in the shot clock

                            ^^^^^^^^
                            That is my biggest issue with the offence. At times it completely looks void. Okay! When they score , great! But is it working vs good teams? Nope, not after the clippers.

                            I'm not even sure how anyone can defend this other than
                            " our offensive rating WAS this" ... " guys were making shots early in the season"

                            I believe front page RR recently did an article on this issue.
                            Last edited by SamMitchells; Thu Jan 29, 2015, 11:22 AM.
                            2006-07 NBA Coach of the Year

                            Comment


                            • stooley wrote: View Post
                              I'm not sure that last year we saw any major offensive issues in the playoffs. Yes certain things could have been done differently. Yes, Brooklyn adjusted to our schemes and hurt us on a number of plays.

                              But the Raptors ORTG in that series was 109.2, which sounds pretty good.



                              I've heard all those points before, they just don't necessarily ring that true to me. I saw all the same things you did, and all of those things frustrated me. But once again, the Raptors had a pretty solid ORTG that series. Which means that they eye test of how pretty our offense was, doesn't necessarily translate to a solid judgement on whether it was effective or not.

                              If there was one reason we lost, it was our inability to stop Joe Johnson. The second reason would be a lack of experience.

                              I'm by no means saying Casey was anywhere close to perfect in that series. There were some mistakes (ahem, the final play) that are pretty brutal. But a lot of the complaints this year re: offensive schemes seem a little unfounded to me.
                              The Raptors offensive rating in the regular season was 112.7.
                              The Raptors offensive rating in the playoffs was 108.2.

                              The Raptors points per game in the regular season was 101.3.
                              The Raptors PPG in the playoffs was 96.1.

                              The Raptors OffRTG was average in the playoffs (108.2) - 8th of 16 teams.
                              The Ratpors DefRTG was also average (110.0) - 8th of 16.


                              If you take out game three where they scored 115 points the numbers get much uglier - and closer to the truth.


                              **The full season numbers also take in to account the ugly Gay start to season. So the drop off in the playoffs was even more disturbing.

                              Comment


                              • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                                The Raptors offensive rating in the regular season was 112.7.
                                The Raptors offensive rating in the playoffs was 108.2.

                                The Raptors points per game in the regular season was 101.3.
                                The Raptors PPG in the playoffs was 96.1.

                                The Raptors OffRTG was average in the playoffs (108.2) - 8th of 16 teams.
                                The Ratpors DefRTG was also average (110.0) - 8th of 16.


                                If you take out game three where they scored 115 points the numbers get much uglier - and closer to the truth.


                                **The full season numbers also take in to account the ugly Gay start to season. So the drop off in the playoffs was even more disturbing.
                                Its called "The Playoffs" for a reason. Every teams numbers drop in the playoffs. Every team is least efficient in the playoffs.

                                Lucky were so good at scoring in the paint.
                                @Chr1st1anL

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