#FireCasey

[mcHAPPY]

Dude, I don't know how you can be condescending and paint yourself as a tanking pariah, given that a year ago you were using "patience" in the complete opposite direction.

Feb 25th, 2014


May 24th, 2014


July 4th, 2014



I am not trying to call you out on your decision to change your mind; new information should lead to re-evaluation. But I don't understand your aggravated tone or condescension, given that we are basically exactly in the roster position you anticipated, and you yourself said "the team is on the right track for sustainable growth and contention."

How can you bash other people for having the exact same view you did?

I am philosophically in your corner but surely you can read your own words and understand where others are coming from.

I think they were great posts for the situation of last summer. That group earned a right to come back - and Masai added to it with Williams and JJ. Unfortunately the Raptors ran straight in to a road block.... or they shat all over the opportunity Masai had given them - take your pick on perspective.

Patience is still needed with the Raptors. Sending pieces out and returning more assets is still the name of the game (asset accumulation). Funny enough, I think sticking with this current core and forcing it to work is both impatient and short sighted. We just watched 7-8 years of Colangelo trying to jam a square peg in to a round hole of mediocre expectations. A rebuild is in the future of Toronto much sooner than later UNLESS Bruno becomes a star, they can trade for a star while keeping the current core, or they draft a star at 20. Might as well be proactive and start the rebuild on your own terms. This was not a young team last season despite the mainstream media and Raptors broadcast narrative. They youth didn't play and the coach only believes in VETS.

Patience is needed when your group is still climbing their respective mountain. Some teams climb higher mountains than others. The Raptors are on top of their mountain with nowhere to go. There is another mountain off in the distance that looks far more challenging and rewarding. Unfortunately they need to get down off the top of their own mountain first before they can look to climb higher.


*EDIT*
Oh and bashing others is far from the intention. The people I am 'bashing' are doing nothing, in my opinion, to provide insight in to their views. They are not offering any insight in to how this team actually gets better. The only justifications in their view I am reading are: 1) DD is amazing and is only going to continue to get better, and 2) the current status of being a first round exit is better than risking taking a step backwards to build on a better foundation (which as I said in another post is cool if merely making the playoffs is satisfaction enough for you - but at least state that).

[mcHAPPY]

But you are completely misinterpreting the intentions of the word patience there. The idea was not to sell the future to get more win-now talent. That growing with young pieces, which showed great promise, was a better course of action than trading picks and prospects for short term fixes.

It was not a call to stick to this core no matter what, or to let assets potentially walk (heck, asset retention was the whole point).

That said, I never saw huge upside myself in this team as constructed, besides the flexibility they would have this summer - which would be useful if they got better this past season and not worse. But after that debacle, a) it brings up valid questions about this core and coach and b) it really cuts down on the likelihood a difference making FA signs here.

You nailed it.

Regarding the bold, this past season, if anything, derailed this whole concept of attracting an impact FA - especially when you consider the entire league is going to have significant cap space next summer, as you know.

Toronto was an up and coming franchise last summer. Now they are a franchise that appears to have plateaued and is stagnant. The players and coaches did nothing to add to the appeal of joining this roster and franchise. Might sound fickle but that is the reality of the NBA. DD didn't take another step or even maintain. Lowry burnt out. The consequences of JVs mismanagement over the last 3 seasons are really starting to be felt when looking at the future prospects of the team. Ross really did nothing. PP and GV put in career years in contract season. Lou got his. Casey.... ugh.

[stooley]

And that is fair. I just think the percentages aren't in your favour.

20th picks (Bruno and this year) aren't statistically great players. Solid role players can be found for sure but even with the hope of Bruno it is still as they said on draft night "swinging for the fences".

Same really applies to Bebe. I have hope he can become a really good contributor like Amir, but who really knows. He wasn't a top 10 pick, and without any NBA minutes, really hard to say at this point.

Then we have to find free agents to fill multiple starter spots with just $16M, plus likely replacing other players (Lou? Amir? Hans?).

Then we have the possibility of landing a free agent of top caliber (either this year or another) to eventually add that top player above DD. if we are rolling forward with this group, then we can't really depend on the draft unless both NY and Den suck next year. I won't get into DD improving anymore, but let's just leave it at the history of the NBA doesn't paint that as likely. (I started to research this very topic the other day for a future thread).

So yes, all the things you said are possible, but the success rate/probability of each part seems much lower than the alternatives.

I agree with a lot of that. But statistically speaking, the returns on lottery picks aren't very good either.

And then to think that you have to hit on a bunch of them, with more moving parts, the odds there don't seem all that great either.

[stooley]

We only really need two of Bruno, Bebe and our next three picks to be solid role players to make it work

[Axel]

We only really need two of Bruno, Bebe and our next three picks to be solid role players to make it work

That's assuming that what this team needs is solid role players. That isn't something most people would agree with. We need top end talent first. We don't have that now and wont acquire it with picks in the 20s and free agents.

[mcHAPPY]

We only really need two of Bruno, Bebe and our next three picks to be solid role players to make it work

Really?

Where is the greater talent than Lowry or DD coming from?

Should be evident by now that both are easy to stop in the playoffs.

[stooley]

That's assuming that what this team needs is solid role players. That isn't something most people would agree with. We need top end talent first. We don't have that now and wont acquire it with picks in the 20s and free agents.

Well it's assuming that Lowry and hopefully JV are that top end talent.

Like I said before, if we're somewhere between the team from the first half and the team from the second half then we're a 49 win team that underperformed in the playoffs because our best player played like crap.

I think you add some solid role players through the draft /prospects and spend our cap space this year wisely to add better complimentary players, then that team is looking pretty good.

[stooley]

Really?

Where is the greater talent than Lowry or DD coming from?

Should be evident by now that both are easy to stop in the playoffs.

It's really not that evident, but I know there's no point in having this conversation

[DanH]

Well it's assuming that Lowry and hopefully JV are that top end talent.

Like I said before, if we're somewhere between the team from the first half and the team from the second half then we're a 49 win team that underperformed in the playoffs because our best player played like crap.

I think you add some solid role players through the draft /prospects and spend our cap space this year wisely to add better complimentary players, then that team is looking pretty good.

Pretty good: the new high bar for Raptors fans.

Yeah, and the team looked pretty good last year and coming into this one and we have zero playoff series wins for it.

[Axel]

Well it's assuming that Lowry and hopefully JV are that top end talent.

Like I said before, if we're somewhere between the team from the first half and the team from the second half then we're a 49 win team that underperformed in the playoffs because our best player played like crap.

I think you add some solid role players through the draft /prospects and sirens or cap suave this year wisely to add better complimentary players, then that team is looking pretty good.

I don't have faith in Lowry to be that talent - so I can't agree with your position but can appreciate the value in your thought process.

I also don't have faith in Casey to get JV involved enough to be that talent. And if we win 49 games again and do better in the playoffs next year - all going on your assumptions, not mine - then Casey will continue to coach this team. With Lowry's age/style/health, we likely have 3 or 4 years of maybe making the conference finals. That's assuming we can get/stay ahead of teams like Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, Washington, etc for the right to battle LeBron in the East Finals. After 3 or 4 years, Lowry won't be able to sustain (if he can at all) and a new power will likely supplant LeBron.

[planetmars]

I don't normally post stuff I see on RealGM... but this is priceless:

[stooley]

Pretty good: the new high bar for Raptors fans.

Yeah, and the team looked pretty good last year and coming into this one and we have zero playoff series wins for it.

Ok there. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you read my other posts?

[stooley]

I don't have faith in Lowry to be that talent - so I can't agree with your position but can appreciate the value in your thought process.

I also don't have faith in Casey to get JV involved enough to be that talent. And if we win 49 games again and do better in the playoffs next year - all going on your assumptions, not mine - then Casey will continue to coach this team. With Lowry's age/style/health, we likely have 3 or 4 years of maybe making the conference finals. That's assuming we can get/stay ahead of teams like Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, Washington, etc for the right to battle LeBron in the East Finals. After 3 or 4 years, Lowry won't be able to sustain (if he can at all) and a new power will likely supplant LeBron.

That's fair. Would obviously need more info about Lowry too. Was he really hurt /sick? What was his attitude towards the end of the year? Etc.

I'd be happy with conference finals for three years. Tough to envision a better outcome than that whatever happens. It would also make our FA pursuit a lot easier, and do a ton for the franchises legacy.

[OldSkoolCool]

Ok there. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you read my other posts?

I got the same impression as DanH. Perhaps you can clarify?

[thead]

Hitler video made me laugh/sad