Everything VanVleet

[The Claw Reborn]

I will say this. You asked for maxey in an FVV trade a year ago and ppl poo pooed you I may have been one of them but that would have been the correct decision.

Jalen Brunson makes $26M/year and he's younger than Fred, so that would be a fair deal, IMO. It was the late season overpays of Herro and Poole that really messed up Fred's market. But, if he keeps on this downward track of injury and poor play, I wonder if he'll regret signing the extension. As far as performance. We could be witnessing a Thibs-Rose situation happening with Nurse & Fred. We know he's not a quick guard, but he's looked even slower than normal this year. Can't get by anybody off the dribble.

And why would Fred for Maxey be considered a bad deal back then, if it would be considered a steal of a deal today? Not really following that logic. That's the point of hindsight. Even better would have been Fred for Tyrese Haliburton in a 3-way deal, if that was possible.

The claw reborn always choose the road less traveled, if I go against the grain then so be it ….I just refused to drink the kool-aid.

But I was always more on the idea to sell high when the value of a player at its peak especially when that player has reached that ripe age and hit its ceiling.

After Mr. VanVleet help us win that championship, I really thought that was the best time to dangle him in a trade even before the Raptors traded Kyle to Miami.

VanVleet/ Birch/ Boucher and 2 Second Round Picks for Brogdon and Sabonis

then

I also suggested VanVleet for an iteration of a trade to get Maxey a year ago.

now this season…

I already suggested VanVleet/ Precious/ Birch for Lauri Markannen and Olynyk

——————

since Golden suggested a three team trade scenario to get Haliburton

here is my suggestion….

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2jq2yfta

Toronto: Turner/ Halliburton/ Olynyk
Utah: Hield/ Birch/ Flynn/ picks
Indiana: VanVleet/ Precious/ Markannen

But a one on one trade with Utah is simpler

[DanH]

I responded to your question of you not understanding the gif that it would be mind blowing and stupid if Masai/ Bobby would offer him that amount of money. Not talking about what he will get from other teams but rather talking about the Raptors being prudent and responsible. He bet on himself once again in not signing in the offseason. Definitely it is common sense that the Raptors cannot force him to sign on a contract if he thinks he is undervalued.

Take it or leave it ($25-27 mil/ per)

or find another alternative which is to trade him and maximize the return

This is a wonderful way to run a team into the ground.

[planetmars]

I responded to your question of you not understanding the gif that it would be mind blowing and stupid if Masai/ Bobby would offer him that amount of money. Not talking about what he will get from other teams but rather talking about the Raptors being prudent and responsible. He bet on himself once again in not signing in the offseason. Definitely it is common sense that the Raptors cannot force him to sign on a contract if he thinks he is undervalued.

Take it or leave it ($25-27 mil/ per)

or find another alternative which is to trade him and maximize the return

But nobody suggested that he would get that max contract (over $45M a year). So why would you think Bobby or Masai would even consider it?

And if you think over $30M is too high, remember 25% of $134M is $33.5M. As I keep saying, that is likely the high point of his new deal, and would likely contain bonus / incentives to reach it.

I am not in the negotiation room but I think that's what Fred's camp will be looking at.. and Masai has always been fair with his contract negotiations.

The best move would be to keep him and then eventually trade him like they did DeMar.. Or find a S&T like they did with Kyle.

[TrueTorontoFan]

[The Claw Reborn]

This is a wonderful way to run a team into the ground.

I dont believe you anymore lol but there are still people who do so you will be fine.

[The Claw Reborn]

But nobody suggested that he would get that max contract (over $45M a year). So why would you think Bobby or Masai would even consider it?

And if you think over $30M is too high, remember 25% of $134M is $33.5M. As I keep saying, that is likely the high point of his new deal, and would likely contain bonus / incentives to reach it.

I am not in the negotiation room but I think that's what Fred's camp will be looking at.. and Masai has always been fair with his contract negotiations.

The best move would be to keep him and then eventually trade him like they did DeMar.. Or find a S&T like they did with Kyle.

There will always be a stupid team to offer him and his agent a mind blowing offer. That was the reason of the gif as I said lol.

VanVleet’s camp has a number in mind and Masai may have one that could be lower than theirs so the reason of the standoff.

Yes that is what I said before the season started, keep him by signing him at 25-27 million then trade him.

But right now with his declining numbers and could be related to his body breaking down not sure, I dont see a good return in a trade.

Hopefully he at least find a way to improve his numbers that we could timely find a trading partner before the deadline.

Only a kool-aid drinker and his minions would think that idea is running a team to the ground

[golden]

But nobody suggested that he would get that max contract (over $45M a year). So why would you think Bobby or Masai would even consider it?

And if you think over $30M is too high, remember 25% of $134M is $33.5M. As I keep saying, that is likely the high point of his new deal, and would likely contain bonus / incentives to reach it.

I am not in the negotiation room but I think that's what Fred's camp will be looking at.. and Masai has always been fair with his contract negotiations.

The best move would be to keep him and then eventually trade him like they did DeMar.. Or find a S&T like they did with Kyle.

Fred could have signed for 4 years @ $114M = $28.5 AAV. When you're already at that income level, does an extra 1.5M/year really change your life, compared to giving the team salary cap certainty to help build a winner around you? If Fred doesn't snap out of his funk, then he might regret not taking that deal and running.

But of course, we all know that Nurse will give Fred an unlimited leash to play through his problems and/or Fred will go on the injured list for an extended time. Fred will eventually play better (even spectacularly) at some point.... and people will forget that he really isn't the driver of wins or floor raiser of role players, like Lowry, who he is most often compared to. Especially as the floor general, franchise PG and engine of the team. It's funny to hear guys like T-Rex complain about other players not stepping up to help Fred vs. Fred elevating others, like a true PG. But he will be paid like Lowry and make roster construction more difficult. That's the benefit of a combo guard having the unconditional support of a coach.

[LJ2]

All that needs to be said about FVV is that getting him playing up to his normal abilities should be the top priority. Scottie and Gary have found or are finding their way back to form, but we're not going very far in the playoffs with Fred playing the way he currently is or perhaps worse not playing at all like some are suggesting.

[planetmars]

Fred could have signed for 4 years @ $114M = $28.5 AAV. When you're already at that income level, does an extra 1.5M/year really change your life, compared to giving the team salary cap certainty to help build a winner around you? If Fred doesn't snap out of his funk, then he might regret not taking that deal and running.

But of course, we all know that Nurse will give Fred an unlimited leash to play through his problems and/or Fred will go on the injured list for an extended time. Fred will eventually play better (even spectacularly) at some point.... and people will forget that he really isn't the driver of wins or floor raiser of role players, like Lowry, who he is most oven compared to. Especially as the floor general, franchise PG and engine of the team. It's funny to hear guys like T-Rex complain about other players not stepping up to help Fred vs. Fred elevating others, like a true PG. But he will be paid like Lowry and make roster construction more difficult. That's the benefit of a combo guard having the unconditional support of a coach.

Yes, 1.5M a year does matter. His mentor and friend (ie, Lowry) kept reminding him that it's a business and that he should take as much as he can get. We don't know if an extension was even offered, but if it was I suspect he turned it down because he felt he deserved more. He was coming off an all-star season.

The season is only what 25 games in? There is a lot of the season to be played out. He'll get his game back like you insinuated.. and will get that money. He is part of the Raptor foundation for better or for worse. But give it 1-3 years and I'm sure a change will be made.

Masai is super patient of course. He plays things out several years before he makes any drastic moves. So I don't think Fred's new contract will really impact the team too much considering how high the cap is going. As long as he's making less than 25% of the cap it will work out.

[golden]

Yes, 1.5M a year does matter. His mentor and friend (ie, Lowry) kept reminding him that it's a business and that he should take as much as he can get. We don't know if an extension was even offered, but if it was I suspect he turned it down because he felt he deserved more. He was coming off an all-star season.

The season is only what 25 games in? There is a lot of the season to be played out. He'll get his game back like you insinuated.. and will get that money. He is part of the Raptor foundation for better or for worse. But give it 1-3 years and I'm sure a change will be made.

Masai is super patient of course. He plays things out several years before he makes any drastic moves. So I don't think Fred's new contract will really impact the team too much considering how high the cap is going. As long as he's making less than 25% of the cap it will work out.

1.5M/yr matters, if you're focused on squeezing every penny from the NBA. And I have no problem with that. But, that amount isn't life altering, if you've already been making $20M/yr for some time. Lowry backed up that salary talk, by elevating role players and being a huge driver of wins. Fred is the franchise PG of a .500 team that has no half-court offense.

[planetmars]

There will always be a stupid team to offer him and his agent a mind blowing offer. That was the reason of the gif as I said lol.

VanVleet’s camp has a number in mind and Masai may have one that could be lower than theirs so the reason of the standoff.

Yes that is what I said before the season started, keep him by signing him at 25-27 million then trade him.

But right now with his declining numbers and could be related to his body breaking down not sure, I dont see a good return in a trade.

Hopefully he at least find a way to improve his numbers that we could timely find a trading partner before the deadline.

Only a kool-aid drinker and his minions would think that idea is running a team to the ground

Sure, there are bad teams.. but most teams don't have cap space, or operate under the cap. Free agency is usually done through S&T's now. There will be the odd free agent that finds a home (like Brunson to NY most recently). But it's rare.

And as we know by history Masai is always fair. He never underpays. And usually the contract he gives out ends up being worth it. In some cases like with Carroll it didn't.. but that was also a weird time since the cap rose so significantly and teams weren't prepared for it.

Fred is playing poorly now.. but he will bounce back. Actually he started off the season pretty well for the most part. Just kind of went down hill since he hurt himself and then had some weird illness that set him back. I think his issues at this point are mainly mental. He just needs to have another kid and he'll get to playing like an all-star again.

[The Claw Reborn]

Sure, there are bad teams.. but most teams don't have cap space, or operate under the cap. Free agency is usually done through S&T's now. There will be the odd free agent that finds a home (like Brunson to NY most recently). But it's rare.

And as we know by history Masai is always fair. He never underpays. And usually the contract he gives out ends up being worth it. In some cases like with Carroll it didn't.. but that was also a weird time since the cap rose so significantly and teams weren't prepared for it.

Fred is playing poorly now.. but he will bounce back. Actually he started off the season pretty well for the most part. Just kind of went down hill since he hurt himself and then had some weird illness that set him back. I think his issues at this point are mainly mental. He just needs to have another kid and he'll get to playing like an all-star again.

I read a response about that in another site, he just have make another baby, that is the best solution to this problem,

[planetmars]

1.5M/yr matters, if you're focused on squeezing every penny from the NBA. And I have no problem with that. But, that amount isn't life altering, if you've already been making $20M/yr for some time. Lowry backed up that salary talk, by elevating role players and being a huge driver of wins. Fred is the franchise PG of a .500 team that has no half-court offense.

It's rare for players to take cuts. He's going to get what he wants. Just like Pascal will get the super max when he's due for one.. and OG will want his lion share when he's a free agent.

Labeling Fred as a PG is a bit unfair though. The Raptors don't have a traditional PG. They have 4 starting caliber guys that can all handle the ball and initiate. No one is elite at it though. But they all bring different things. Unfortunately the biggest strength Fred brought to the table (high volume 3pt shooting) is missing, and so he's pretty much exposed.

Pascal had the same issues in the bubble when he couldn't get to the rim despite being 6'9. That was his best skill. Being able to get by his guy using finesse and agility and making plays at the rim. He's doing that in spades now.

The team has patience.. and will give Fred a lot of runway to get his act together. Just like they gave Pascal that same runway.

[The Claw Reborn]

It's rare for players to take cuts. He's going to get what he wants. Just like Pascal will get the super max when he's due for one.. and OG will want his lion share when he's a free agent.

Labeling Fred as a PG is a bit unfair though. The Raptors don't have a traditional PG. They have 4 starting caliber guys that can all handle the ball and initiate. No one is elite at it though. But they all bring different things. Unfortunately the biggest strength Fred brought to the table (high volume 3pt shooting) is missing, and so he's pretty much exposed.

Pascal had the same issues in the bubble when he couldn't get to the rim despite being 6'9. That was his best skill. Being able to get by his guy using finesse and agility and making plays at the rim. He's doing that in spades now.

The team has patience.. and will give Fred a lot of runway to get his act together. Just like they gave Pascal that same runway.

He has no in-between game…I mentioned this last season, I was hoping for him to improve his mid range shots in the off season or an alternative shot to keep opposing teams guessing on defense.

Obviously, more than 55% of his shots are from the 3 point line and he is presently nailing those Hail Marys at a 34% clip.

As you stated and I bolded, he is exposed if he is not making those shots with decent accuracy. As the table below indicated historically in his career, offensively the three point shot has always been his money maker, nothing else.

His decent help defense and his alpha mentality is another thing that got him to this point.

But one can also argue that he is not a good initiator of offense.

One thing as I said to consider is his ceiling which I think he already hit his head to it and his overall health.

The reason as well of me saying is the Big investment long term worth it. If we are championship contending team then maybe but we are not.


[code]
% of % of % of % of % of % of FG% FG% FG% FG% FG% FG%
Season Pos FG% Dist. 2P 0-3 3-10 10-16 16-3P 3P 2P 0-3 3-10 10-16 16-3P 3P
2016-17 PG .351 11.6 .739 .378 .180 .063 .108 .261 .341 .429 .100 .429 .417 .379
2017-18 PG .426 13.9 .521 .327 .132 .037 .026 .479 .437 .567 .236 .050 .357 .414
2018-19 PG .410 16.6 .507 .255 .080 .050 .122 .493 .441 .516 .333 .300 .411 .378
2019-20 SG .413 15.4 .516 .307 .113 .038 .060 .484 .434 .549 .230 .276 .326 .390
2020-21 SG .389 18.2 .453 .174 .115 .069 .095 .547 .416 .530 .260 .433 .386 .366
2021-22 PG .403 19.9 .415 .086 .122 .091 .116 .585 .440 .649 .313 .410 .441 .377
2022-23 PG .357 17.6 .447 .139 .120 .075 .086 .553 .378 .486 .313 .300 .348 .340
Career .401 16.2 .478 .209 .116 .062 .089 .522 .426 .546 .270 .353 .399 .379
[/code]

Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/6/2022.

[Primer]

It's rare for players to take cuts. He's going to get what he wants. Just like Pascal will get the super max when he's due for one.. and OG will want his lion share when he's a free agent.

Labeling Fred as a PG is a bit unfair though. The Raptors don't have a traditional PG. They have 4 starting caliber guys that can all handle the ball and initiate. No one is elite at it though. But they all bring different things. Unfortunately the biggest strength Fred brought to the table (high volume 3pt shooting) is missing, and so he's pretty much exposed.

Pascal had the same issues in the bubble when he couldn't get to the rim despite being 6'9. That was his best skill. Being able to get by his guy using finesse and agility and making plays at the rim. He's doing that in spades now.

The team has patience.. and will give Fred a lot of runway to get his act together. Just like they gave Pascal that same runway.

Totally agree with the bold. It seems like some around here believe the players are the ones doing these negotiations. They're not. It's an agent and his 1 job is to get as much money as possible for his client (and therefore himself since he gets a cut). If they offered Fred $28M, his agent wisely turned that down because he knows they could get $34M if they wait, and $28M is the absolute floor. Players trust their agents to handle this stuff. Players play basketball they aren't agents.