Everything VanVleet

[Yuri Gagarin]

Ya its starting to look like fred will pick up his player option. If he doesnt could he be the next shroder?

[MixxAOR]

This is where your focus on Nurse is limiting your field of vision. It is clear that this roster was constructed trying to gain a competitive advantage cause Toronto can't attract free agents or stars via trade who want to play there. So, not being able to get the most desirable players, the front office looks for undervalued guys that it could potentially turn into the next Siakam, etc (i.e. great athletes with a tool box full of skills that need to be honed).

Just recently the Raps tried to get Brogdon - didn't want to play there. Neither did Schroeder. They moved Lowry for Achiuwa and Dragic (also didn't want to play in Toronto) rather than take the cap space cause they knew they wouldn't be able to sign anyone with it anyway (may as well take the flyer on Precious). Nurse or no Nurse, they are going to try to cheat the system cause they can't win playing it.

"If we try to play like Yankees in here we will lose to Yankees out there"

[slaw]

"If we try to play like Yankees in here we will lose to Yankees out there"

Was thinking more about Tampa Bay Rays but, yes, same idea.

[The Great One]

The number 1 need is not a center.... it's a point guard. A real point guard. Fred is currently the franchise point-guard... he achieved his goal and he SHOULD be the scapegoat. Even if his and his teammates shots are not falling, a point guard's job is to get guys easy shots and try to get them into rhythm by running sets, instead of having a 5'10" ISO'ing and wasting time off the clock. Prime Lowry used to prop up absolute scrub bench lineups to crazy net ratings. We mocked his 0 pt, +25 plus/minus nights... but it was winning basketball with the point guard setting the tone. Make more shots, and we cut down on easy transition baskets, which is exactly what Nurse just said. It was obvious to me... 4 years ago... that Fred was not a true point guard. He followed up his 6MOTY nomination by trying to be the bench PG in the chip year, and he flopped badly... on a talent-loaded team. I do blame Masai, Bobby and Nurse for building the roster around Fred as the franchise point guard. That's fair criticism.

The second scapegoat is, and should be, Nurse. The team also bet the farm (i.e. roster construction) on his ability to teach shooting to defense-first players. It's all well-documented, with Nurse backing it up with quotes. It was pure arrogance and Masai and Bobby bought into the Nurse bravado. The only thing worse than Nurse's inability to teach shooting (in addition to running an offense that is not conducive to rhythm shooting)... is Nurse not being able to play defense with a roster full of a defense-first guys with physical tools.

I never said C is their #1 need. Their #1 need is shooting. This team have 2-3 shooters on their team. You can't have that in the modern NBA, maybe in the 90s.

[planetmars]

It has to come down to risk management now with FVV. If your going to move him at the deadline you are trading a rental who is playing poorly. Value will be at an all time low. Or you could roll the dice and keep him hope he returns to form and can be signed and traded in the off season.

The big thing we want to avoid is losing am asset for nothing. Masai has been really good at least getting some type of return for almost every player who wasn't part of the long term plans (Kyle, t Ross, Rudy, bargs even). The raps arnt in a position to lose big time players for nothing.

With Fred playing so poorly it might be best for him to opt into his player contract, and then try to prove it next season. And then we as a franchise figure out if its worth extending him past that season. As you said his value will be at an all time low. And this season is already lost. So it's no big deal if we're losing with him playing poorly now.

As for losing him for nothing.. it's never really been a concern of mine. Ideally you want something back, like a pick/prospect. But at the end of the day even if you lose the player, you gain flexibility in the payroll. Don't have to worry about giving super maxes to Pascal and Scottie. Can give OG a nice raise. Can use mid levels without having to adjust for tax, etc.

[G__Deane]

This is where your focus on Nurse is limiting your field of vision. It is clear that this roster was constructed trying to gain a competitive advantage cause Toronto can't attract free agents or stars via trade who want to play there. So, not being able to get the most desirable players, the front office looks for undervalued guys that it could potentially turn into the next Siakam, etc (i.e. great athletes with a tool box full of skills that need to be honed).

Just recently the Raps tried to get Brogdon - didn't want to play there. Neither did Schroeder. They moved Lowry for Achiuwa and Dragic (also didn't want to play in Toronto) rather than take the cap space cause they knew they wouldn't be able to sign anyone with it anyway (may as well take the flyer on Precious). Nurse or no Nurse, they are going to try to cheat the system cause they can't win playing it.

I keep going back to this point. There are quite a few NBA teams that are not prime elite player destinations just like the Raptors. What do they have in common? Budget, weather, taxes, geography. Sure, but what else>>>they don't win NBA Championships (chicken and egg). And if you aren't able to sign elite free agents, you need to draft an elite player(s) and to do that you generally have to suck for years or acquire a draft pick from a team that does.

In other words, it's extremely hard for the Toronto Raptors not to be rather mediocre-not quite good enough for the foreseeable future....especially as we appear to somehow always be up against the cap without a superstar.

Look at the list of NBA champs since 2005 and look at their best players(s). They had a Kawhi like or better roster; Curry, Giannis, lebron, Duncan, Dirk or Pierce/Garnett/Allen, lebron, Bosh, Wade.

If you can't sign or develop elite players, stop talking about Championships and just be happy to have a generally competitive NBA team as a ceiling until once in a blue moon....that's evidently Toronto now.

2023	TBD	0-0	TBD
2022	Golden State Warriors	4-2	Boston Celtics
2021	Milwaukee Bucks	4-2	Phoenix Suns
2020	Los Angeles Lakers	4-2	Miami Heat
2019	Toronto Raptors	4-2	Golden State Warriors
2018	Golden State Warriors	4-0 (sweep)	Cleveland Cavaliers
2017	Golden State Warriors	4-1	Cleveland Cavaliers
2016	Cleveland Cavaliers	4-3	Golden State Warriors
2015	Golden State Warriors	4-2	Cleveland Cavaliers
2014	San Antonio Spurs	4-1	Miami Heat
2013	Miami Heat	4-3	San Antonio Spurs
2012	Miami Heat	4-1	Oklahoma City Thunder
2011	Dallas Mavericks	4-2	Miami Heat
2010	Los Angeles Lakers	4-3	Boston Celtics
2009	Los Angeles Lakers	4-1	Orlando Magic
2008	Boston Celtics	4-2	Los Angeles Lakers
2007	San Antonio Spurs	4-0 (sweep)	Cleveland Cavaliers
2006	Miami Heat	4-2	Dallas Mavericks
2005	San Antonio Spurs	4-3	Detroit Pistons

[slaw]

If you can't sign or develop elite players, stop talking about Championships and just be happy to have a generally competitive NBA team as a ceiling until once in a blue moon....that's evidently Toronto now.

I mean that's pretty much every organization in the NBA. The Warriors were one of the worst organizations in professional sports for close to 40 years until the last decade. The Lakers have made the playoffs twice in a decade. The Heat signed 3 hall of famers in their prime and won 2 titles and are now fighting to stay out of the play-in after several years of mediocre ball. The Knicks.

It's really hard to win a title. Most teams win once in a blue moon in every North American sport. Raps just won a championship. Declaring them a mediocre never-will team after 4 seasons is a major overreaction to a single-season setback.

[Jclaw]

[A.I]

Whether something happens or not, trade deadline is always fun.

[LJ2]

Maybe something to do with the podcast released today?

[G__Deane]

I mean that's pretty much every organization in the NBA. The Warriors were one of the worst organizations in professional sports for close to 40 years until the last decade. The Lakers have made the playoffs twice in a decade. The Heat signed 3 hall of famers in their prime and won 2 titles and are now fighting to stay out of the play-in after several years of mediocre ball. The Knicks.

It's really hard to win a title. Most teams win once in a blue moon in every North American sport. Raps just won a championship. Declaring them a mediocre never-will team after 4 seasons is a major overreaction to a single-season setback.

Fans need to admit or understand how fortunate the Kawhi trade was and how incredibly unlikely the series of events was that led up to the Chip and stop living off it like it was just a matter of time. Take that away and the Raptors could easily be one of those teams that never gets the holy grail or else decades and decades apart.

With respect, your reaction if typical of many who don't want to comtemplate that.
With perhaps better management, how are we different than the Pacers, Kings or Timberpuppies? Hey, we had a bunch of 50+ win seasons!

[The Claw Reborn]

It is a matter of time….

[A.I]

Fans need to admit or understand how fortunate the Kawhi trade was and how incredibly unlikely the series of events was that led up to the Chip and stop living off it like it was just a matter of time. Take that away and the Raptors could easily be one of those teams that never gets the holy grail or else decades and decades apart.

With respect, your reaction if typical of many who don't want to comtemplate that.
With perhaps better management, how are we different than the Pacers, Kings or Timberpuppies? Hey, we had a bunch of 50+ win seasons!

The fortunate part was winning a championship in the first year of Kawhi, but stars get traded fairly often. Its also rare for a star to bolt after winning a championship.

The Raptors' philosophy of developing and winning while retaining assets worked perfectly for Kawhi because they still had a good enough team to win a title with Kawhi.

Raps currently have assets, but unfortunately the developing players and winning has been lacking.

[slaw]

Fans need to admit or understand how fortunate the Kawhi trade was and how incredibly unlikely the series of events was that led up to the Chip and stop living off it like it was just a matter of time. Take that away and the Raptors could easily be one of those teams that never gets the holy grail or else decades and decades apart.

With respect, your reaction if typical of many who don't want to comtemplate that.
With perhaps better management, how are we different than the Pacers, Kings or Timberpuppies? Hey, we had a bunch of 50+ win seasons!

All organizations go up and down. It’s cyclical. Spurs were at the top for a long time now they suck. This is every North American sports organization with very few exceptions (Yankees and…. that’s about it.) Winning it all takes an incredible amount of good fortune. Even amazing teams have very short timelines 3-5 years) and they are done. The odd dynasty is the result of a generational player but once he is gone (Brady, Gretzky, Jordan) those teams fade back to the pack. Not sure why you think Toronto would be or should be the Yankees of the NBA.

[Jclaw]

Maybe something to do with the podcast released today?

How much power does Bill SImmons have?


EDIT: Maybe you're talking about JJ's podcast where he does mention wanting to get paid. Makes sense
I thought you were talking about Simmons tossing out a trade that sent FVV to the Heat and we get Russell