Everything VanVleet

[iblastoff]

But IF healthy history of nba players i think shows 26-29 better stats than 29-32 no?

i think the average nba tenure is actually just under 6 years in the league. Im not sure how much juice you guys expect to keep squeezing out of fred. Injuries increase with age not lessen. Sure maybe but realistically...

21/22 hip hip groin knee back groin hip back back

fred has already surpassed the average nba players tenure then. he clearly doesnt fit the average mold of an nba player. only something like 10% of the league is undrafted players. becoming an all-star as undrafted is statistically nearly impossible.

last year, OG shot something like 34% from 3 before the all-star break, then rebounded and shot 46% after. long slumps can happen to shooters. we'll see.

[golden]

But IF healthy history of nba players i think shows 26-29 better stats than 29-32 no?

i think the average nba tenure is actually just under 6 years in the league. Im not sure how much juice you guys expect to keep squeezing out of fred. Injuries increase with age not lessen. Sure maybe but realistically...

21/22 hip hip groin knee back groin hip back back

It's no surprise that Fred is showing signs of wear, considering the pounding he takes finishing at the rim. He ends up getting bumped hard and crashing to the ground on a lot of his finishes. And he used to be a tenacious defender, fighting through screens and is still leading the league in distance travelled.

Fred's got a lot of "city miles" on him, as Jack Armstrong likes to say.

[bertarapsfan]

It's no surprise that Fred is showing signs of wear, considering the pounding he takes finishing at the rim. He ends up getting bumped hard and crashing to the ground on a lot of his finishes. And he used to be a tenacious defender, fighting through screens and is still leading the league in distance travelled.

Fred's got a lot of "city miles" on him, as Jack Armstrong likes to say.

Fred is definatly old school ala Isaiah Thomas and Kenny Smith. Play through injury and walk funny the rest of your life.. in the 80 and 90s it was part of the game. In modern times teams need to protect players from themselves.

[Yuri Gagarin]

Yeahs hes earned his 80 mill no doubt. Just not sure about the 133

[Yuri Gagarin]

Fred is definatly old school ala Isaiah Thomas and Kenny Smith. Play through injury and walk funny the rest of your life.. in the 80 and 90s it was part of the game. In modern times teams need to protect players from themselves.

Yes. There was no rule enforcement in mlb to use starters automatic for 5,6 or 7 innings now instead of near full games like before. It was in their best interest.

[DanH]

See, Dan, was that so hard? The reason why Fred is so important to this team is that they can't backfill him. If he struggles for an extended period of time, it has an enormous impact because there's just no way to compensate for it. The other big 4 are already taxed out in their own roles (Barnes playing 1-5, Siakam doing his Doncic impersonation, OG defending the best player and needing 20 every night, Trent needing to bail them out and carry all the bystanders) can't possibly pick up Fred's outsized job as well.

If Pascal or OG go down Raps at least have other competent forwards they can utilize. You can't replace those guys but you can at least throw out actual NBA players like Boucher/Achiuwa/Young/Koloko. If Trent goes down you can move his scoring around even though it's not the same. But if Fred goes down or doesn't play good, well, you're just fucked.

Was what so hard? Pretending that we don't have a backup for Fred? He doesn't play 48, of course we do. They aren't good, nor are they skillset replacements. But we don't have anyone who can step into Pascal's skillset either. It's the reality of the NBA, the best players on your team simply do not have real backfills. That's more true of Pascal than Fred on this team, and equally true of OG vs Fred (less so Barnes and Gary).

[DanH]

i think it was a rhetorical question we dont have a true back up pointguard or true offensive initiator

Pascal initiates more offence than Fred by a wide margin.

[DanH]

That's one factor as to why Fred's impact stats look good, which a poster asked earlier. Kind of like when Patrick Patterson looked like an advanced stats superstar, because the guy who usually replaced him was washed Luis Scola. When we got Ibaka, 2Pat's impact stats dropped off considerably.

Just goes to show how badly this team needs real PG skills... both in the starting lineup and as at the backup PG spot. Having Fred (a combo guard) and our PFs trying to be pseudo PGs looks like a failed experiment in position-less basketball.

Patterson never looked like an impact stats superstar. He looked fine, and Scola looked terrible, because Patterson was fine and Scola looked terrible. Patterson's on/offs looked incredible for that reason, but impact stats (the good ones) are smart enough to assign blame to the bad backups rather than credit to the player.

Patterson also happened to suffer essentially a career ending injury around when we got Ibaka, which might have played into that drop off.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Pascal initiates more offence than Fred by a wide margin.

that misses my point. off the bench who is initiating offence ... that was my point. this is why i wanted bogdonavic (ATL)

[TrueTorontoFan]

But IF healthy history of nba players i think shows 26-29 better stats than 29-32 no?

i think the average nba tenure is actually just under 6 years in the league. Im not sure how much juice you guys expect to keep squeezing out of fred. Injuries increase with age not lessen. Sure maybe but realistically...

21/22 hip hip groin knee back groin hip back back

personally im not expecting a ton

[DanH]

that misses my point. off the bench who is initiating offence ... that was my point. this is why i wanted bogdonavic (ATL)

I mean sure but that hardly applies only to Fred's on/offs, which was the discussion at hand.

That said, the answer is pretty easy, and it should be: Pascal when Fred is resting, Scottie or Fred when Pascal is resting. You don't need to bring creation off the bench. Finishing helps (Gary, anyone?). Creation is expensive though, and you are better to invest in that for your starters and just have them support the bench. That was the backbone of the half decade of ~50 win teams we had, it's not some crazy new idea.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I mean sure but that hardly applies only to Fred's on/offs, which was the discussion at hand.

That said, the answer is pretty easy, and it should be: Pascal when Fred is resting, Scottie or Fred when Pascal is resting. You don't need to bring creation off the bench. Finishing helps (Gary, anyone?). Creation is expensive though, and you are better to invest in that for your starters and just have them support the bench. That was the backbone of the half decade of ~50 win teams we had, it's not some crazy new idea.

huh what are you talking about? you are misunderstanding my point and went on a random tangent. My point isn't to say trade fred to get a bench initiator only that we need a bench initiator.

[DanH]

huh what are you talking about? you are misunderstanding my point and went on a random tangent. My point isn't to say trade fred to get a bench initiator only that we need a bench initiator.

Yeah, and my point is that we don't, we have enough initiators, and actually good initiators are expensive to acquire.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Yeah, and my point is that we don't, we have enough initiators, and actually good initiators are expensive to acquire.

to the bolded... no you dont say... that is an obvious point.


for the rest I do not agree. I think we are missing one. Ideally one that is more dynamic. Is it hard to get ? yes.

[golden]

Have seen this interesting trade idea floating around:

To Raps: Terry Rozier
To Bulls: FVV
To CLT: Lonzo Ball

Can adjust with picks/players as needed going different ways, but that's the core of the deal.

Kind of makes sense for all of the teams involved.