Everything VanVleet

[golden]

Nobody feels bad for these guys and whatever they do with their money. It's not the point though. They all are trying to get as much out of their careers as possible. Fred, Dame and every other guy in the NBA.

Sure, grab all you can for yourself while the getting is good. I endorse that from a person standpoint.

But if the franchise's goal is build a championship caliber team, then the issue is that when you are making a big chunk of the cap, then you need to drive wins at a level that a championship caliber team requires. And you also need do that in the playoffs, relative to your compensation. If you can't, then your salary hamstrings the team's ability to bring in the required extra talent to prop you up. That's been the problem with building around guys like Dame and Beal.

And when we talk about driving wins, we also need to account for the tricky question of whether or not systems & roles have been tweaked in your favor, at the expense of your teammates abilities. For example, with Fred we don't run that much pick & roll, because he's lousy at that, and that affects the numbers of bigs.

Lowry, in particular, used to say he was proud that "he got his teammates paid". He definitely made Boucher and Birch look better than they actually were. Serge too. After almost 2 years of Fred as the franchise PG, we can't really say there's a player that Fred makes look better than his talent level.... is there?

[G__Deane]

Nobody feels bad for these guys and whatever they do with their money. It's not the point though. They all are trying to get as much out of their careers as possible. Fred, Dame and every other guy in the NBA.

Hey I agree but saying "every bit counts" and he's only going to get ~25-30M a year for the next 7-8 years makes me
For a lot of guys, the money will outlive two lifetimes with good financial representation. But it's an ego thing to see where you land on a list and both agents and unions actually frown on not taking every last dollar since they don't really have to care about winning or living in an area where you have a good situation.

[LJ2]

Sure, grab all you can for yourself while the getting is good. I endorse that from a person standpoint.

But if the franchise's goal is build a championship caliber team, then the issue is that when you are making a big chunk of the cap, then you need to drive wins at a level that a championship caliber team requires. And you also need do that in the playoffs, relative to your compensation. If you can't, then your salary hamstrings the team's ability to bring in the required extra talent to prop you up. That's been the problem with building around guys like Dame and Beal.

And when we talk about driving wins, we also need to account for the tricky question of whether or not systems & roles have been tweaked in your favor, at the expense of your teammates abilities. For example, with Fred we don't run that much pick & roll, because he's lousy at that, and that affects the numbers of bigs.

Lowry, in particular, used to say he was proud that "he got his teammates paid". He definitely made Boucher and Birch look better than they actually were. Serge too. After almost 2 years of Fred as the franchise PG, we can't really say there's a player that Fred makes look better than his talent level.... is there?

In agreement here and when the team can come up with a scenario where they can either find a PG that can do that or is an upgrade to Fred then by all means they should move him. I just find the conversation around here seems skewed towards get rid of Fred at all costs and don't worry about how it impacts the team. Just seems like a poor asset retention strategy.

Historically, Raps haven't really relied on pick & roll too much have they? I don't remember them running it that much even back in the DeMar days and not that much in the championship year either. It just doesn't seem to be something the Raps have called on much. Maybe that's because Fred isn't really a PG and is weak there or maybe that's part of their strategy to keep their turnovers low. Do you really think if they wanted to make that a part of their playbook that they would sacrifice it for Fred? He'd be long gone.

Fred's no Lowry, I get that. Nobody is confusing him with being the GROAT.

[Dvdvideo]

Nobody feels bad for these guys and whatever they do with their money. It's not the point though. They all are trying to get as much out of their careers as possible. Fred, Dame and every other guy in the NBA.

But at a certain point it's just greed, not necessity. That's where we are at here. Love the city and want to stay, but willing to risk leaving for 10%.......something doesn't add up.

[Dvdvideo]

Did he turn it down or did both sides agree to revisit in the summer? These guys have a relatively short career so lets not talk about $12M like it's nothing. Every bit counts for a guy who is likely going to be out of a job in the next 7-8 years.

Ultimately, it's an agreement to pay Fred whatever his market value is. Raps would be losing all leverage by agreeing to let this go to the summer when he can walk.

Yes saying you won't meet when you know the offer is = turning it down.

[Kagemusha]

But at a certain point it's just greed, not necessity. That's where we are at here. Love the city and want to stay, but willing to risk leaving for 10%.......something doesn't add up.

I hate that get paid mantra that directly stems from bet on yourself philosophy.
That's why I hate Nick for advocating that.
It's not all about money.

Some great players take paycuts to make the team better,
but I guess there's just so few of them.

[G__Deane]

I hate that get paid mantra that directly stems from bet on yourself philosophy.
That's why I hate Nick for advocating that.
It's not all about money.

Some great players take paycuts to make the team better,
but I guess there's just so few of them.

If I was making $28M a year in a good suituation but had the opportunity to make $30 but had to move cities in a lateral or worse move, pull my kidds out of school and yank my wife away from friends/support network of family or the other wives, have to find a new home, pack up all my crap, find new grocry stores/restaurants etc of regular moving, I'd stay put.

But that's just a regular person talking who understands that enough really is enough and doesn't measure my worth by an extra dollar. Athletes for the most part aren't built that way, often come out of low level childhoods and are more like hoarders. Otherwise, you'd see more athletes stay in one city for years and years or even entire careers.

The NBA elite almost never stay put and I on't think most people understand the toll on famillies for a guy chasing money or even rings. Maybe a guy like Dirk valued things differently?

[slaw]

If I was making $28M a year in a good suituation but had the opportunity to make $30 but had to move cities in a lateral or worse move, pull my kidds out of school and yank my wife away from friends/support network of family or the other wives, have to find a new home, pack up all my crap, find new grocry stores/restaurants etc of regular moving, I'd stay put.

But that's just a regular person talking who understands that enough really is enough and doesn't measure my worth by an extra dollar. Athletes for the most part aren't built that way, often come out of low level childhoods and are more like hoarders. Otherwise, you'd see more athletes stay in one city for years and years or even entire careers.

The NBA elite almost never stay put and I on't think most people understand the toll on famillies for a guy chasing money or even rings. Maybe a guy like Dirk valued things differently?

Players weigh a lot of different factors like anyone else. The NBA in particular cause of the cap and restrictions on contracts definitely brings lots of other factors into play.

[LJ2]

But at a certain point it's just greed, not necessity. That's where we are at here. Love the city and want to stay, but willing to risk leaving for 10%.......something doesn't add up.

You're talking about pretty much every player in the NBA. This isn't exclusive to Fred which is what it's being made out to be.

[Dvdvideo]

You're talking about pretty much every player in the NBA. This isn't exclusive to Fred which is what it's being made out to be.

Greed being rampant doesn't justify its righteousness automatically. Also some players say they don't care where they play, others swear loyalty/allegiance to a city or team.

[GOLDBLUM]

Greed being rampant doesn't justify its righteousness automatically. Also some players say they don't care where they play, others swear loyalty/allegiance to a city or team.

I think it's frankly ridiculous and perilous to talk about Fred and most other players in terms of "rampant greed."

Fred grew up in one of the poorest and most violent places in America. Where the wealth gap is as high or higher than anywhere on the continent.

Sure, Fred wants to get "the bag" and have a big house and a fancy car. But I think we can stop with the "how many mansions does Fred need?" talk. This is a man who does a ton of charity work. Who sees the inequity in the communities around him. And ultimately Fred is, himself, a business. This isn't about him riding a banana boat with with CP and Carmelo for the rest of his days in the bahamas, making it rain. This is about entrepreneurship. This is about generational wealth. Taking care of his family and others around him for generations to come. It's not about how many Maserati's he can fit in his own personal airplane hanger.

And ultimately, he should be paid what he's worth -- in the NBA. ... That's a vastly different system of judgement of worth than most of us here are used to, absolutely. He's better and been better than a lot of players out there who are making more than he is. Or at least he certainly thinks he is. And that's his prerogative. If you don't like it, stop participating in these capitalist organizations. Otherwise, welcome to the NBA, and your enjoyment of it.

Anyway, I bristle at the lack of awareness of what we're really talking about here. Fred is a basketball player, a business, a philanthropist -- and a human being with the opportunity to redistribute wealth as he would see fit, in a world that's got an egregious wealth-distribution problem.

[golden]

In agreement here and when the team can come up with a scenario where they can either find a PG that can do that or is an upgrade to Fred then by all means they should move him. I just find the conversation around here seems skewed towards get rid of Fred at all costs and don't worry about how it impacts the team. Just seems like a poor asset retention strategy.

Historically, Raps haven't really relied on pick & roll too much have they? I don't remember them running it that much even back in the DeMar days and not that much in the championship year either. It just doesn't seem to be something the Raps have called on much. Maybe that's because Fred isn't really a PG and is weak there or maybe that's part of their strategy to keep their turnovers low. Do you really think if they wanted to make that a part of their playbook that they would sacrifice it for Fred? He'd be long gone.

Fred's no Lowry, I get that. Nobody is confusing him with being the GROAT.

For your highest paid players, you can't always look at asset retention in a vacuum. If a player is making a significant amount of the cap, then there is significant pressure on management and the coach to tilt the system & roles towards the leveraging that player's strengths and minimizing his weaknesses to maximize their impact... potentially at the expense of developing other players, or even roster selection. Even advanced/impact stats don't always capture this, i.e., if certain players are being put in better positions to succeed than others from the get-go.

Masai has said in the past that your highest paid players have to be your best players. That's kind of an obvious statement, but it's tough to demote a guy to a lesser role if you realize later that you made a mistake in over-paying him for a role that's beyond his true capabilities. Or you realize his lesser capabilities can be filled with a lower salaried player.

[iblastoff]

a lot of insane stupid posts here. now we're complaining about nba players salaries?? lol.

would any of YOU take a paycut to improve your workplaces overall performance or to signify loyalty to your job? yah didnt think so.

we get it. these dudes make millions. blah blah blah. but whining about fred making so much money and either not willing to take a paycut 'for the team' or calling him greedy is just fucking stupid. grow the fuck up.

plus, freds been playing a LOT better this past stretch even when he isn't scoring, yet people still whining. yeesh.

the reality is fred is being paid like the 2nd best player on the team, and with the caveat of the usual ups and downs a player goes through, so far he's lived up to those expectations.

also, since when did high salaries mean expected wins? for every giannis level players, theres gonna be 30 other zach lavines/damian lillards/and now trae youngs all making near max money and not winning anything.

[golden]

a lot of insane stupid posts here. now we're complaining about nba players salaries?? lol.

would any of YOU take a paycut to improve your workplaces overall performance or to signify loyalty to your job? yah didnt think so.

we get it. these dudes make millions. blah blah blah. but whining about fred making so much money and either not willing to take a paycut 'for the team' or calling him greedy is just fucking stupid. grow the fuck up.

plus, freds been playing a LOT better this past stretch even when he isn't scoring, yet people still whining. yeesh.

If talking about player's salaries in relation to future roster construction, system/roles and how it affects other players' development is stupid and whining.... then what exactly is your post/rant?

Personally, I'm rooting for Fred to get every last penny he can possibly get. But if that number hurts our roster construction.... then... thanks, good luck and God bless.

[Kagemusha]

a lot of insane stupid posts here. now we're complaining about nba players salaries?? lol.

would any of YOU take a paycut to improve your workplaces overall performance or to signify loyalty to your job? yah didnt think so.

we get it. these dudes make millions. blah blah blah. but whining about fred making so much money and either not willing to take a paycut 'for the team' or calling him greedy is just fucking stupid. grow the fuck up.

plus, freds been playing a LOT better this past stretch even when he isn't scoring, yet people still whining. yeesh.

the reality is fred is being paid like the 2nd best player on the team, and with the caveat of the usual ups and downs a player goes through, so far he's lived up to those expectations.

also, since when did high salaries mean expected wins? for every giannis level players, theres gonna be 30 other zach lavines/damian lillards/and now trae youngs all making near max money and not winning anything.

First of all, sports can not be compared to a regular 8-5 job. Come on.
These are world famous personalities who will be remembered forever.
Taking paycuts is not showing loyalty to your team, it's more about improving YOUR chances of success.
No athelete cares about their billionaire team owners, not even to their loyal fans no matter what they say.
But there's this thing called legacy which the elite athletes care about.
( keyword: elite )