Everything VanVleet

[chris]

Fred's not a PG. He's the main issue with this team. We will never be good with Fred at PG. Sell high.

i want the ball in scottie's hands as the primary playmaker as this team evolves in the future. that's how i think scottie maximizes his potential. fred complements that perfectly as a guy who can play effectively off the ball but also provide secondary playmaking and ball handling duties if teams are pressuring scottie, which he currently still struggles with.

i don't give a shit whether fred is a "true point guard" or not. it's irrelevant.

and it's hilarious you think that's the main issue with the team. this team has so many issues from schemes to personnel. like what are you watching man.

[Yuri Gagarin]

Fred is playing like well these 2-3 weeks can be the difference of tens of millions of dollars

[Primer]

i want the ball in scottie's hands as the primary playmaker as this team evolves in the future. that's how i think scottie maximizes his potential. fred complements that perfectly as a guy who can play effectively off the ball but also provide secondary playmaking and ball handling duties if teams are pressuring scottie, which he currently still struggles with.

i don't give a shit whether fred is a "true point guard" or not. it's irrelevant.

and it's hilarious you think that's the main issue with the team. this team has so many issues from schemes to personnel. like what are you watching man.

Fred refuses to let someone else be the ball handler. He bitched and moaned about it in every media interview the past few months and blamed his poor play this season on being asked to be off ball more.

If he was fine being a complementary off ball piece then I'd keep him. He's clearly not. He thinks he's a superstar and wants money close to a max deal.

Can't count the number of times I've seen Fred look off Scotty and chuck a bad shot early in the shot clock, or drive straight into multiple opposing defenders while Scottie is wide open and has a dejected look on his face. Fred has his play style and it's not a complimentary off ball guy. He thinks he's Steph Curry.

[DanH]

Fred refuses to let someone else be the ball handler. He bitched and moaned about it in every media interview the past few months and blamed his poor play this season on being asked to be off ball more.

If he was fine being a complementary off ball piece then I'd keep him. He's clearly not. He thinks he's a superstar and wants money close to a max deal.

Can't count the number of times I've seen Fred look off Scotty and chuck a bad shot early in the shot clock, or drive straight into multiple opposing defenders while Scottie is wide open and has a dejected look on his face. Fred has his play style and it's not a complimentary off ball guy. He thinks he's Steph Curry.

I think this is an exaggerated take, but I think the ultimate conclusion is correct. This team has forwards that absolutely need the ball, and Fred has been saving the offence fairly often by doing it himself rather than playing off ball - which is a perfectly valid approach for him to take but also just not what the team needs from him long term.

Moving Fred will hurt the team's ability to win games in the short term (especially if they move Gary too, really scuttle the shooting), which likely plays into their hand for the rest of the season, and ultimately they'll be hoping Scottie can be the creator in the lineup they need and that they can find shooting elsewhere. It will take time to find the right pieces but such is life.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I think this is an exaggerated take, but I think the ultimate conclusion is correct. This team has forwards that absolutely need the ball, and Fred has been saving the offence fairly often by doing it himself rather than playing off ball - which is a perfectly valid approach for him to take but also just not what the team needs from him long term.

Moving Fred will hurt the team's ability to win games in the short term (especially if they move Gary too, really scuttle the shooting), which likely plays into their hand for the rest of the season, and ultimately they'll be hoping Scottie can be the creator in the lineup they need and that they can find shooting elsewhere. It will take time to find the right pieces but such is life.

we aint making the playin ... its time to put this tank in overdrive.

[planetmars]

we aint making the playin ... its time to put this tank in overdrive.

What more is there to do? They are losing with a full roster anyway.

The thing we can't let happen is having this team turn into the Pistons/Hornets/Rockets. We need to turn this ship around sooner than later. Not sure that happens if we trade all our vets for picks and expiring contracts.

[DanH]

What more is there to do? They are losing with a full roster anyway.

The thing we can't let happen is having this team turn into the Pistons/Hornets/Rockets. We need to turn this ship around sooner than later. Not sure that happens if we trade all our vets for picks and expiring contracts.

Yeah, need to be selective here. Part of why I really hope they don't move Pascal or OG (unless he is really asking out, which I'm not convinced of but we can't really know). They could probably just move one of Fred or Gary, honestly, but if the market is strong enough and they really want to lean into their vision, now is an opportunity to move both.

[Primer]

I think this is an exaggerated take, but I think the ultimate conclusion is correct. This team has forwards that absolutely need the ball, and Fred has been saving the offence fairly often by doing it himself rather than playing off ball - which is a perfectly valid approach for him to take but also just not what the team needs from him long term.

Moving Fred will hurt the team's ability to win games in the short term (especially if they move Gary too, really scuttle the shooting), which likely plays into their hand for the rest of the season, and ultimately they'll be hoping Scottie can be the creator in the lineup they need and that they can find shooting elsewhere. It will take time to find the right pieces but such is life.

From recent reports it sounds like we're wanting to keep Gary. He's a shooter, fits age wise with Scottie, and will cost significantly less than Fred. Hopefully we can get him on more term this time.

[golden]

i want the ball in scottie's hands as the primary playmaker as this team evolves in the future. that's how i think scottie maximizes his potential. fred complements that perfectly as a guy who can play effectively off the ball but also provide secondary playmaking and ball handling duties if teams are pressuring scottie, which he currently still struggles with.

i don't give a shit whether fred is a "true point guard" or not. it's irrelevant.

and it's hilarious you think that's the main issue with the team. this team has so many issues from schemes to personnel. like what are you watching man.

It's extremely relevant to future roster construction/cap flexibility/winning if the team is paying $130-140M for a mini-sized combo guard, whose greatest value is as an off-ball shooter who needs better playmakers to get him open shots.... or if the team is paying for a true point guard who makes a lot of other guys more valuable and he can also shoot. That's not even taking into account the defensive slippage.

[planetmars]

It's extremely relevant to future roster construction/cap flexibility/winning if the team is paying $130-140M for a mini-sized combo guard, whose greatest value is as an off-ball shooter who needs better playmakers to get him open shots.... or if the team is paying for a true point guard who makes a lot of other guys more valuable and he can also shoot. That's not even taking into account the defensive slippage.

I don't care if Fred stays or not.. but he's eying Herro or Poole's deals which are decent.. about 20% of the cap. If his defense continues to decline that's not a deal breaker. I mean again Herro and Poole got paid.

If you think Fred is going to go back to playing like he forgot how to shoot then its a bad deal. But if he keeps playing like he has then that's the right value for him. And this team needs shooters. Especially if we want Scottie to be the focal of this team. Fred can do that.

If we move on from Fred then his skillset will need to be replaced. We don't have a natural guy to replace his skills on this team. Flynn isn't that guy. For Pascal we have Scottie. For OG we have Precious.

[The Claw Reborn]

I don't care if Fred stays or not.. but he's eying Herro or Poole's deals which are decent.. about 20% of the cap. If his defense continues to decline that's not a deal breaker. I mean again Herro and Poole got paid.

If you think Fred is going to go back to playing like he forgot how to shoot then its a bad deal. But if he keeps playing like he has then that's the right value for him. And this team needs shooters. Especially if we want Scottie to be the focal of this team. Fred can do that.

If we move on from Fred then his skillset will need to be replaced. We don't have a natural guy to replace his skills on this team. Flynn isn't that guy. For Pascal we have Scottie. For OG we have Precious.

Sorry dude but you have to pick a side….either you trade him OR retain him by paying him whatever your opinion is decent which you already clearly stated above … a deal like Herro or Poole.

you can’t have both ways and play safe in this kind of discussion

[golden]

I don't care if Fred stays or not.. but he's eying Herro or Poole's deals which are decent.. about 20% of the cap. If his defense continues to decline that's not a deal breaker. I mean again Herro and Poole got paid.

If you think Fred is going to go back to playing like he forgot how to shoot then its a bad deal. But if he keeps playing like he has then that's the right value for him. And this team needs shooters. Especially if we want Scottie to be the focal of this team. Fred can do that.

If we move on from Fred then his skillset will need to be replaced. We don't have a natural guy to replace his skills on this team. Flynn isn't that guy. For Pascal we have Scottie. For OG we have Precious.

Lots of players can shoot these days. We’ve just been bringing in defense first guys because we believed Nurse could teach shooting. You can get that for cheaper than $130M. You shouldn’t always comp to the highest end to feel good about a bad deal just because another GM also didn’t cut a great deal for their franchise.

[planetmars]

Sorry dude but you have to pick a side….either you trade him OR retain him by paying him whatever your opinion is decent which you already clearly stated above … a deal like Herro or Poole.

you can’t have both ways and play safe in this kind of discussion

Pick a side? It's not an election. I want the Raptors to be better. If we can get a great deal than yeah trade him. If we get nothing significant you keep him and work to make a trade in a year or two when he's got more value.

But the value has to be right in a trade. I personally don't think Fred walks in free agency as his only real options would be a team like Orlando or San Antonio.. and he's going to want to go to a winning situation.

So I'd gamble that he sticks around. But if we only get a poo poo platter like Saric and Shamet with a 2nd rounder, then forget it.

[planetmars]

Lots of players can shoot these days. We’ve just been bringing in defense first guys because we Nurse could teach shooting. You can get that for cheaper than $130M. You shouldn’t always comp to the highest end to feel good about a bad deal just because another GM also didn’t cut a great deal for their franchise.

Many can shoot but Fred is far more than a role player. He's got a 118 ORTG with a 22.8% USG. That's pretty good. And he's had a really tough year as well. Fred can also create his own 3pt shot. Most great 3pt shooters need someone to create it for them.

It's not about bad deals.. its about the market. 20% of the cap is great for what he provides at his age. If we're talking 25% or more than its a bad deal.. but that's not what Herro or Poole got either.

[TrueTorontoFan]

What more is there to do? They are losing with a full roster anyway.

The thing we can't let happen is having this team turn into the Pistons/Hornets/Rockets. We need to turn this ship around sooner than later. Not sure that happens if we trade all our vets for picks and expiring contracts.

welll I would pick scottie and pascal and see what is out there for the rest but lean towards OG staying unless he can't see it working.