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  • planetmars wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't trade Kyle for Butler but agree with everything else you wrote. Fred became a heck of a player for us last year.. but we need Kyle. He's an impact guy for us, and was during the playoffs. I think he has more value than what Butler could provide, especially since we are so stacked at the wing.
    Personally I agree but I just see everyone on the "trade kyle train" and I would say that is the only move that I would consider doing ... which I dont think happens.

    Comment


    • inthepaint wrote: View Post
      Actually, I don't agree with the use of that word to describe this team as led by Derozan. That more aptly describes the Pistons and Hornets of the world, or the Raptors that were swept by the Wizards, imo

      I was extremely happy with the trade, and like mostly everyone that actually follows the team closely, saw clearly that we had hit our ceiling, and we wouldn't go any further with the way we were built. That said, the very reason we could rightfully start to even contemplate championships as goals is because of how the floor of this team was raised over the past 4-5 yrs.

      We went from being the punchbag of the NBA to being one of the best teams in the conference, consistently winning over 50 games, breaking multiple franchise records in the process, never even worrying if we would make the playoffs or not, often being among the leagues' top defences and offences. We took a huge leap. That didn't happen overnight, took a lot of hard work, focus on internal development and careful management by Masai. That ain't mediocre in my book.

      None of that was enough of course, and we had to take another huge step this year, but without that foundation, we wouldn't have a top 5 player on a roster and be primed for an NBA finals as we are right now.
      I think it's a harsh word, but I think it perfectly describes it in my opinion.

      Yes, they raised the bar of the franchise, a culture was built, etc.

      But, why do you need to take another step forward if your team is 'supposedly' good enough?

      I'm saying, this current team, led by DeRozan, wouldn't go anywhere the following years. It'd be a couple years more of solid regular seasons, early exits--the same results, even with LeBron out of the East, because the Celtics and Sixers have improved thanks to internal growth.

      We took a huge leap. That didn't happen overnight, took a lot of hard work, focus on internal development and careful management by Masai. That ain't mediocre in my book.
      Yes, the Raptors took a huge leap. But, if the roster and the organization no longer takes steps to develop further, then, what is it? It's mediocre. The franchise would've been okay with just being... okay.

      Maybe I'll re-word with: If DeRozan wasn't traded, and he is still the team's 'star,' the Raptors will be heading into mediocrity. Middle-of-the-pack. Good team. Not elite.

      Comment


      • ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
        I think it's a harsh word, but I think it perfectly describes it in my opinion.

        Yes, they raised the bar of the franchise, a culture was built, etc.

        But, why do you need to take another step forward if your team is 'supposedly' good enough?

        I'm saying, this current team, led by DeRozan, wouldn't go anywhere the following years. It'd be a couple years more of solid regular seasons, early exits--the same results, even with LeBron out of the East, because the Celtics and Sixers have improved thanks to internal growth.



        Yes, the Raptors took a huge leap. But, if the roster and the organization no longer takes steps to develop further, then, what is it? It's mediocre. The franchise would've been okay with just being... okay.

        Maybe I'll re-word with: If DeRozan wasn't traded, and he is still the team's 'star,' the Raptors will be heading into mediocrity. Middle-of-the-pack. Good team. Not elite.
        To clarify, I don't disagree with anything you said in regards to what DeRozan managed to do with the Raptors in the past five years. It was not mediocre, but if you continue to go down a path that has proven to have peaked, that's where I will call mediocrity.

        Comment


        • ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
          To clarify, I don't disagree with anything you said in regards to what DeRozan managed to do with the Raptors in the past five years. It was not mediocre, but if you continue to go down a path that has proven to have peaked, that's where I will call mediocrity.
          The most interesting & surprising thing about the DeRozan trade was the fan reaction. The casual fans (i.e. the vast majority) were more than happy being locked into this level of pretty good mediocrity, year-after-year. The hardcore fans (and Masai) were not. There's a clear divide here.

          Comment


          • golden wrote: View Post
            The most interesting & surprising thing about the DeRozan trade was the fan reaction. The casual fans (i.e. the vast majority) were more than happy being locked into this level of pretty good mediocrity, year-after-year. The hardcore fans (and Masai) were not. There's a clear divide here.
            A lot of that has to do with a more in-depth understanding of the game and business that the NBA is, I feel. Not saying casuals are idiots or anything, lol, but there are just bigger things being taken into consideration.

            Comment


            • ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
              A lot of that has to do with a more in-depth understanding of the game and business that the NBA is, I feel. Not saying casuals are idiots or anything, lol, but there are just bigger things being taken into consideration.
              Not idiots..... just ignorant. And emotional.

              Comment


              • golden wrote: View Post
                Not idiots..... just ignorant. And emotional.
                I didn't say it, haha.

                But, yes. Too much personal going on. I get the emotional connection with DeRozan, especially regarding the track record of keeping free agents, but, that stuff is all garbage. Lowry was the first to stay. We manged to sign Carroll, who at the time was the most coveted small forward after that season with ATL. Ibaka re-signed. VanVleet the most recent example, not even wanting to take a meeting with other teams.

                Notable free agents that left, wanted to stay: Lou Williams, Bismack Biyombo. But Masai chose not to, whether it was $ related, or a different direction.

                So, yes, to summarize, you're right lol.

                Comment


                • ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
                  To clarify, I don't disagree with anything you said in regards to what DeRozan managed to do with the Raptors in the past five years. It was not mediocre, but if you continue to go down a path that has proven to have peaked, that's where I will call mediocrity.
                  Yes, this I can somewhat agree with. The reality is there was a clear divide between the pre-Washington sweep years and beyond. What happened right after was the building of a stepping stone to where we are today (i.e. a realistic shot at the finals, and if Kawhi re-signs, a shot at a championship). We wouldn't be where we are today without that period. (like, you don't go straight from Rudy Gay to championship).

                  On the other hand, that growth period had hit its plateau. Clearly. (to anyone that understands the league). It was time to move on, and we did. It is possible to recognize we needed that growth period, and at the same time see that we needed to move on from it when the time came. They're not mutually exclusive. Now, if we hadn't moved on form it (i.e stayed with/re-signed Derozan/Casey), then yeah we would have devolved into mediocrity. But Masai saw that and didn't let it happen, thankfully.

                  Every team needs to take steps forward all the time. Doesn't mean that because they take a step forward it's because they were mediocre before. You can be good, even excellent, and still need to take big steps to keep up with the growth of other teams. Heck, even championship teams need to be taking steps forward. When Golden State signed Durant, they weren't mediocre. But they saw Cleveland take a title right outta their hands, saw the Rockets growing too, so they took that step and signed him.

                  I'm thrilled with this trade. Even if Kawhi walks this is a home run. For the first time I'm actually hoping the summer goes by quickly! Can't wait till October.
                  Last edited by inthepaint; Wed Aug 1, 2018, 10:21 AM.
                  2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

                  Comment


                  • Hate to be a stickler but the word mediocrity means "middling," or "halfway to the top," which in no way describes the Raptors over the last five years. Saying that "going down a path that has proven to have peaked" is what you call mediocrity doesn't change the definition of the word. You could say they have topped out, hit a wall or peaked in their capabilities and been correct, but mediocrity in the NBA would be teams that win 40-45 games and don't make it into the playoffs year after year. The Raptors have been a top team for years that were a tier below the elite teams.

                    Comment


                    • Another interesting take on what happened between the Spurs and Kawhi:
                      http://hoopscritic.com/where-the-spurs-went-wrong/

                      If that link doesn't work go here first: http://hoopscritic.com and then click on the first article.

                      According to league sources, when Popovich and Leonard met in June in Southern California, Leonard told Popovich that he did not want to return to San Antonio. The meeting did not last longer than 10 minutes. Furthermore, when Popovich requested this meeting with Leonard, he didn’t think to ask for Kawhi’s family or his agent, Mitch Frankel, to be included. In a relationship where trust is the core problem, asking Kawhi’s most trusted family members to join the meeting could have sent the message that the Spurs were not scapegoating them for these problems. That never happened.
                      I hope DeMar's beef with Masai doesn't make Kawhi feel less inclined to trust Masai.. but it feels like "trust" is the key element here to keep Kawhi happy long term.

                      Comment


                      • ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
                        I mean, I'm not trying to find validation, but I honestly thought I went dumb. Like, how the hell does a career 39% three-point shooter, 50% FG pct shooter, 85% FT shooter on 12 shots not scream all-star? For eff's sakes, he was 9th in the league in scoring the previous season he was healthy.

                        Oh my god, someone help me.

                        AND the dude credited it all solely on the 'system.' Which, like, I get, but that Spurs system is far different than what it was with Tim/Tony/Manu.
                        This is why friends don't let friends do RealGM.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • Puffer wrote: View Post
                          Hate to be a stickler but the word mediocrity means "middling," or "halfway to the top," which in no way describes the Raptors over the last five years. Saying that "going down a path that has proven to have peaked" is what you call mediocrity doesn't change the definition of the word. You could say they have topped out, hit a wall or peaked in their capabilities and been correct, but mediocrity in the NBA would be teams that win 40-45 games and don't make it into the playoffs year after year. The Raptors have been a top team for years that were a tier below the elite teams.
                          My ego has taken a hit.

                          *must go back and read dictionary and press style guide* lol

                          To be fair, I think I clarified what I was saying that, they would have been "halfway to the top" if they had continued with DeRozan rather than trading for Leonard.

                          According to Vocabulary.com, some definitons of the word are: ordinariness as a consequence of being average and not outstanding and a person of second-rate ability or value

                          Synonyms: second-rater, averageness.

                          I mean, based on the past five years of early exits and below-average post-season performances, I'd have to think it would be ordinary or usual to expect those results from a Raptors team with DeRozan as its leader. I mean, that's all we've had.

                          I guess in hindsight, I'm looking at it from a glass half empty perspective. The past five regular seasons were special, anything after that, which in my opinion, where it all matters, has been less than special.

                          Note: Sorry if this comes off condescending or if I sound like a dick, not at all my intention haha. Just trying to make friends again LOL, been off this damn thing for almost 6 years.
                          Last edited by ReubenJRD; Wed Aug 1, 2018, 02:59 PM.

                          Comment


                          • planetmars wrote: View Post
                            Another interesting take on what happened between the Spurs and Kawhi:
                            http://hoopscritic.com/where-the-spurs-went-wrong/

                            If that link doesn't work go here first: http://hoopscritic.com and then click on the first article.



                            I hope DeMar's beef with Masai doesn't make Kawhi feel less inclined to trust Masai.. but it feels like "trust" is the key element here to keep Kawhi happy long term.
                            Masai will smooth things out & explain his side (that is his job) . Beside at this point, we aren't worrying about next summer but this season. So far all indications point that Kawhi is eager and committed to play for the Raps this year. Can't ask for anymore out of a star player (at this juncture) who seems to be quiet guy & reclusive by nature.

                            Comment


                            • ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
                              My ego has taken a hit.

                              *must go back and read dictionary and press style guide* lol

                              To be fair, I think I clarified what I was saying that, they would have been "halfway to the top" if they had continued with DeRozan rather than trading for Leonard.

                              According to Vocabulary.com, some definitons of the word are: ordinariness as a consequence of being average and not outstanding and a person of second-rate ability or value

                              Synonyms: second-rater, averageness.

                              I mean, based on the past five years of early exits and below-average post-season performances, I'd have to think it would be ordinary or usual to expect those results from a Raptors team with DeRozan as its leader. I mean, that's all we've had.

                              I guess in hindsight, I'm looking at it from a glass half empty perspective. The past five regular seasons were special, anything after that, which in my opinion, where it all matters, has been less than special.

                              Note: Sorry if this comes off condescending or if I sound like a dick, not at all my intention haha. Just trying to make friends again LOL, been off this damn thing for almost 6 years.
                              Absolutely agree the post season has been dissappointing. They have been a mediocre playoff team. I can agree on that.

                              Comment


                              • planetmars wrote: View Post
                                Another interesting take on what happened between the Spurs and Kawhi:
                                http://hoopscritic.com/where-the-spurs-went-wrong/

                                If that link doesn't work go here first: http://hoopscritic.com and then click on the first article.



                                I hope DeMar's beef with Masai doesn't make Kawhi feel less inclined to trust Masai.. but it feels like "trust" is the key element here to keep Kawhi happy long term.
                                DeMar's beef with Masai is even subjective at best.

                                Judging from that article,
                                Toronto FO's correct relationship with Kawhi and his family,
                                a healthy positive rapport with his team mates
                                and team success can all contribute to Kawhi staying in Toronto.

                                The Raptors should never devalue Kawhi's family.
                                And we fans should take note as well (no more Uncle Dennis comments).

                                Comment

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