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  • Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    So do you think that Bargnani is tough?

    I sure don't.

    I think he is soft like Neapolitan ice cream that has been setting outside in the summer sun for 20 minutes or more.
    I never said Bargnani is tough, although I have seen him play tough defense an not back down to anyone including Shaq, Duncan, Howard and play them effectively too. It does not take flagrant fouls to be tough. I don't see your pretty boy Amir taking flagrants or being tough, and RuPaul did not get his nickname kicking ass. Who exactly on the Raptors squad this year or last do you think is tougher than Bargnani? DD has shown no toughness, Weems nothing, RuPaul enough said, Amir no, Turdoloo nyet, Jack yes. The lineup they have right now has some possibility in Davis, Alabi, Kleiza, Bargnani, Jack.
    How about tough enough to play when injured as Bargnani has with sprained ankles, bad backs, and the stomach flu versus pussies like girly haired RuPaul sitting when he was cleared to play and the team was fighting for a PLAYOFF SPOT. That is my idea of a weak pussy player who showed the toughness of a bunny rabbit.
    I would like to see Bargnani develop the mental toughness to play hard all the time, and demand the ball more from his teamates.
    Your whole argument about Euro's being soft does not wash as the Euro league allows more contact than the NBA. The NBA has had to limit contact because it is full of idiots that could not control themselves if they were allowed more contact.
    Also generalising is bullshit because Gasol is as tough or tougher than any American player, as are Amundson, Delfino and many others who are not American, and as were Divac, Garbahosa etc...
    It just so happens that most non American players come here because of their superior basketball skills not their superior flagrant foul skills.

    Comment


    • Bargnani's Euro Numbers This Summer & An Interesting Comparison

      As I remember Bargs fans were raving about his numbers in summer league games for Italy.

      Just to put into perspective.

      Pops playing for Great Britain today


      Basketball: GB qualify
      Britain book spot at European Championships after seeing off Bosnia

      Last updated: 26th August 2010 Subscribe to RSS Feed
      Basketball: GB qualify

      Deng: Came alive for 38 points

      Great Britain booked their spot at next year's European Championships after a 94-85 overtime victory against Bosnia & Herzegovina.

      Chicago Bulls star Luol Deng scored 38 points while Pops Mensah-Bonsu grabbed 32 as well as dominating the paint with 21 rebounds during a tense contest at the Echo Arena in Liverpool.
      According to this tweet Pops also had 4 blocks.

      ! RT @teamziller: Deng had 38/13 in Britain's huge win. Pops Mensah-Bonsu had 32/21/4. BALLERS.

      http://www.skysports.com/story/0,195...340488,00.html

      http://twitter.com/NickFlynt
      Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

      Memories some so sweet, indeed

      Larger Photo of the avatar



      “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
      Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

      Comment


      • I'll never for the life of me understand why we kept POB, who never played a god danged second in any minute of any game that was the least bit important or meaningful, while cutting Pops, who, while he was a Raptor, was deemed good enough to get rotation minutes - however meagre. The guy, regardless of how "reckless" or "unpolished" or whatever word the organization would use to describe him as not being worthy, can flat play. He was a guy that grabbed boards, on a team whose biggest failure was not grabbing boards. Yet he was cut and sent out of the league, while POB got paid to literally do nothing. It's astounding, really.

        Comment


        • jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
          I'll never for the life of me understand why we kept POB, who never played a god danged second in any minute of any game that was the least bit important or meaningful, while cutting Pops, who, while he was a Raptor, was deemed good enough to get rotation minutes - however meagre. The guy, regardless of how "reckless" or "unpolished" or whatever word the organization would use to describe him as not being worthy, can flat play. He was a guy that grabbed boards, on a team whose biggest failure was not grabbing boards. Yet he was cut and sent out of the league, while POB got paid to literally do nothing. It's astounding, really.
          Totally agree, I would rather never have traded Will Solomon. Always liked Pops, he brought the energy if not the intelligence, but at least he brought something. I have never seen POB EVER have two good possessions in a row. The guy has major effort issues and the worst part is that he thinks he's trying very hard to stay in the NBA. The guy is the definition of soft.

          Comment


          • Seriously Buddahfan you need to get a life. Why do you feel the need to bash our best player at least 3-4 times a day? This thread is so comical its not even funny. Are you seriously comparing Pops, who has bounced from team to team because he cant hold a permanent job,to someone who averages almost 20 points a game in the NBA? Say what you want about his defence, but the truth is Bosh, who most were willing to give max money to, was even worse and provided 3 more rebounds and 5 more points. In my eyes we are getting great value in Bargnani, far more then we would if we maxed out Bosh.

            Also if you bothered to watch any of the games, what has people excited is that the majority of the points he's scoring are in the paint. He is second in scoring, 8th in rebounding and second in blocks for the tournament as the primary option on offence.

            Comment


            • johnp wrote: View Post
              Seriously Buddahfan you need to get a life. Why do you feel the need to bash our best player at least 3-4 times a day? This thread is so comical its not even funny. Are you seriously comparing Pops, who has bounced from team to team because he cant hold a permanent job,to someone who averages almost 20 points a game in the NBA? Say what you want about his defence, but the truth is Bosh, who most were willing to give max money to, was even worse and provided 3 more rebounds and 5 more points. In my eyes we are getting great value in Bargnani, far more then we would if we maxed out Bosh.

              Also if you bothered to watch any of the games, what has people excited is that the majority of the points he's scoring are in the paint. He is second in scoring, 8th in rebounding and second in blocks for the tournament as the primary option on offence.
              I watched a lot of the games last season.

              Bargnani will not be the Raptors best player in 10-11. He might even turn out to be only their 3rd or 4th best.

              Using summer league Euro play to say that Bargnani is going to become the next Dirk is just out of touch with reality.

              Why do you think that almost everyone thinks the Raptors are going to be so bad?

              The reason is because all these people believe that Bargnani is the Raptors best player.

              If they realized that he will be maybe only their 3rd or 4th best then they would be ranking the Raptors higher like I am.

              You my friend are in a state of cognitive dissonance when it comes to Bargnani.
              Last edited by Buddahfan; Thu Aug 26th, 2010, 09:49 PM.
              Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

              Memories some so sweet, indeed

              Larger Photo of the avatar



              “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
              Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

              Comment


              • Actually i never once compared him to Dirk, so unless you suffer from dyslexia, I'm confused as to why you even brought that up.

                So you claim Bargs will be the third or fourth best player on the team, and consequently the third of fourth option on offence i assume? Care to name who the two or three players are that will surpass him? I'm guessing you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is.

                Finally if summer league isn't a good barometer to measure development, then why do you use it to pump up the "young guns"? I too watched all the games last season, and DeRozan was often a ghost and didn't do half of what he did in the summer.

                Comment


                • Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                  mosales hits it squarely on the head with his description of what RuPaul did for anyone else's game but his own...ZERO. Which is why I believe that Bargnani and Amir will actually be a much better pairing with time provided the coach is not stupid. Both are currently unselfish, skilled big men who can see the value in each other and what that means to the team and their own games, so they can prosper together. This could never really happen with that selfish prick RuPaul as everything and everyone was always about making sure he was happy. This team has the abilty to actually be better than they were last year with the right coaching and a little time, and at minimum will be way more fun to watch without that girly haired douchebag RuPaul on our team.
                  OT: Steve Nash sighting at the Phoenix - San Antonio WNBA playoff game.

                  It is true that Bargnani and Johnson compliment one another.

                  However I do think that Davis will prove to a be a better defender than Bargnani and a more efficient scorer. It goes without saying that Davis will be a better rebounder

                  The Lakers have proved that you can have two big guys operating on the inside and both of them can be effective.

                  So I see Davis and Amir, provided Amir can solve his foul problem, as the two bigs of the Raptors future and not Bargnani and Johnson.

                  If Johnson can't solve his foul problem then he will continue to come off the bench and it will be Davis and Bargnani as the starters. I imagine that they could be just as effective if not more so than Johnson and Bargnani once Davis gets some NBA experience under his belt.
                  Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                  Memories some so sweet, indeed

                  Larger Photo of the avatar



                  “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                  Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                  Comment


                  • johnp wrote: View Post
                    Actually i never once compared him to Dirk, so unless you suffer from dyslexia, I'm confused as to why you even brought that up.

                    So you claim Bargs will be the third or fourth best player on the team, and consequently the third of fourth option on offence i assume? Care to name who the two or three players are that will surpass him? I'm guessing you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is.

                    Finally if summer league isn't a good barometer to measure development, then why do you use it to pump up the "young guns"? I too watched all the games last season, and DeRozan was often a ghost and didn't do half of what he did in the summer.
                    Well if Bargs has improved so much what other big would he become comparable to that plays the game similarly. 7' big man who scores with mostly with jump shots and doesn't play much defense.? Or maybe you are saying that the improved Bargnani will only be as good as Okur?

                    I never said Bargs would be the 3rd or 4th option on offense. That statement by you shows why you grossly overstate Bargnani's value to the Raptors winning. You are saying well if he is only going to be the 3rd or 4th best it means he must therefore be the 3rd or 4th option on offense. Therefore you are saying in effect, that offense is the only way to measure a players value to a team. That is why you over value Bargnani's value to the Raptors.

                    In 09-10 when you look at all forwards and centers who were 6'9" or more and played 1,000 minutes or more there were 94 total players. Bargnani was ranked only 43rd in TS% and 37th in eFG%. Those numbers show that he is not at all very efficient as a scorer.

                    In fact among big men Bargnani is only slightly better than average as an efficient scorer..

                    It is not the total points you score. It is how many and how efficiently that counts.

                    When it comes to rebounding we have already seen that Bargnani is one of the worst rebounders ever for a 7 footer. As I recall only J. Bender (sic) is worse. Even if you lower it 6'10" the number is also pretty bad.

                    Of all players in the history of the NBA who were/are 6'10" or taller and played at least 5,000 career minutes Bargnani is the 11th worst all-time in rebounds per 36 minutes. That is just awful. Interestingly enough Turk is 6th worst all-time in rebounds per 36 minutes among players 6'10" or more.

                    Now lets look at his defensive rating among the same group of players that we used to look his rebounding. Bargnani has the 6th worst all time defensive rating among this group.

                    So clearly I am saying that Bargnani will be only the 3rd or 4th best Raptors player at best based upon his scoring efficiency, rebounding and defense.

                    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...order_by_asc=Y
                    Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                    Memories some so sweet, indeed

                    Larger Photo of the avatar



                    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                    Comment


                    • Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                      Well if Bargs has improved so much what other big would he become comparable to that plays the game similarly. 7' big man who scores with mostly with jump shots and doesn't play much defense.? Or maybe you are saying that the improved Bargnani will only be as good as Okur?

                      I never said Bargs would be the 3rd or 4th option on offense. That statement by you shows why you grossly overstate Bargnani's value to the Raptors winning. You are saying well if he is only going to be the 3rd or 4th best it means he must therefore be the 3rd or 4th option on offense. Therefore you are saying in effect, that offense is the only way to measure a players value to a team. That is why you over value Bargnani's value to the Raptors.

                      In 09-10 when you look at all forwards and centers who were 6'9" or more and played 1,000 minutes or more there were 94 total players. Bargnani was ranked only 43rd in TS% and 37th in eFG%. Those numbers show that he is not at all very efficient as a scorer.

                      In fact among big men Bargnani is only slightly better than average as an efficient scorer..

                      It is not the total points you score. It is how many and how efficiently that counts.

                      When it comes to rebounding we have already seen that Bargnani is one of the worst rebounders ever for a 7 footer. As I recall only J. Bender (sic) is worse. Even if you lower it 6'10" the number is also pretty bad.

                      Of all players in the history of the NBA who were/are 6'10" or taller and played at least 5,000 career minutes Bargnani is the 11th worst all-time in rebounds per 36 minutes. That is just awful. Interestingly enough Turk is 6th worst all-time in rebounds per 36 minutes among players 6'10" or more.

                      Now lets look at his defensive rating among the same group of players that we used to look his rebounding. Bargnani has the 6th worst all time defensive rating among this group.

                      So clearly I am saying that Bargnani will be only the 3rd or 4th best Raptors player at best based upon his scoring efficiency, rebounding and defense.

                      http://www.basketball-reference.com/...order_by_asc=Y


                      I`m still waiting for the two or three players you hold in higher esteem. DeRozan wasn't anything special on defense, nor was Jack. Amir is a below average scorer who gets into foul trouble and Sonny is yet to prove he can be a consistent player. Also, for someone you like to absolutely trash on defence, I believe he was our leader in block shots and arguably our best one on one defender.

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                      • johnp wrote: View Post
                        I`m still waiting for the two or three players you hold in higher esteem. DeRozan wasn't anything special on defense, nor was Jack. Amir is a below average scorer who gets into foul trouble and Sonny is yet to prove he can be a consistent player. Also, for someone you like to absolutely trash on defence, I believe he was our leader in block shots and arguably our best one on one defender.
                        1. Jack is better than Bargnani.

                        2. Johnson had a significantly higher WS/48 and more total Win Shares than Bargnani even though he only played about half the number of minutes. What that means is that even though Johnson played only half as many minutes as Bargnani he contributed more to the Raptors winning than Bargnani.

                        So that puts Bargnani 3rd right there.

                        http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws


                        By the end of 10-11 DeRozan could be better than Bargnani which would probably put Bargnani 4th best.
                        Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                        Memories some so sweet, indeed

                        Larger Photo of the avatar



                        “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                        Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                        Comment


                        • johnp wrote: View Post
                          I`m still waiting for the two or three players you hold in higher esteem. DeRozan wasn't anything special on defense, nor was Jack. Amir is a below average scorer who gets into foul trouble and Sonny is yet to prove he can be a consistent player. Also, for someone you like to absolutely trash on defence, I believe he was our leader in block shots and arguably our best one on one defender.
                          his blocks per minute were less than half compared to amir.

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                          • Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                            1. Jack is better than Bargnani.

                            2. Johnson had a significantly higher WS/48 and more total Win Shares than Bargnani even though he only played about half the number of minutes. What that means is that even though Johnson played only half as many minutes as Bargnani he contributed more to the Raptors winning than Bargnani.

                            So that puts Bargnani 3rd right there.

                            http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws


                            By the end of 10-11 DeRozan could be better than Bargnani which would probably put Bargnani 4th best.


                            Wow talk about arbitrary stats, WS per 48? Also just by claiming Jack is better doesn't make it so.

                            Comment


                            • Nick wrote: View Post
                              In this debate, you have to look at the NBA as a whole versus every other separate entity league as a whole. The guys in the NBA are among the biggest babies in the world. You don't get calls in the NBA based on actuality, its based on who you are. I literally can't stand to watch Kobe based on this. Most players in the NBA have this whiney, complain about every call attitutde whether it be an international or American player. Compare this to the European bball league and the reffing is totally different, definately allowed to be more aggressive, more hand checks, etc.. Are these guys literally tougher? Maybe not. The NBA players probably have the potential to be tougher, but with a think foul first attitude that translates to their international conquests, their is no comparison of who plays tougher when NBA pussy rules are neglected.
                              I agree to a certain extent, as you can see when the certain US players expect bail out calls but get none in the pre tourney FIBA games they seem confused by the lack of a bail out foul call. That's why I really don't like the NBA- because it's a game situation manipulation by alot of NBA Ref's ie superstar calls. Also, the weight difference (NBA basketballs are slightly heavier) of the FIBA basketballs is befuddling- one ball, one game.

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                              • vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                                his blocks per minute were less than half compared to amir.
                                Per 48 minute stats mean nothing because there is a reason why Amir played less then Bargs and that has everything to do with ability. Until he leads the team in blocks, the thrown belongs to Bargs 2 years running.

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