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  • Barolt wrote: View Post
    This. DeMar is about the 8th best midrange shooter on our team. Might be lower, don't have adequate sample sizes for Powell, Wright and Bruno.
    I don't know if 8th is necessarily fair because he is likely capable of hitting more shots from that range if he was taking equally open shots as some of his teammates, but he didn't and forced many until this year.

    Either way, it's not a shot that would stretch the defence in any way, so it's not really a point worth getting into another debate over. DD's midrange prowess has been well, and fairly, racked over the coals around here.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • Axel wrote: View Post
      I don't know if 8th is necessarily fair because he is likely capable of hitting more shots from that range if he was taking equally open shots as some of his teammates, but he didn't and forced many until this year.

      Either way, it's not a shot that would stretch the defence in any way, so it's not really a point worth getting into another debate over. DD's midrange prowess has been well, and fairly, racked over the coals around here.
      DeMar's actually shooting better on contested midrange jumpers than on open ones this season. Wide open, 0 dribble shots at 20+ft he's shooting 21% this season.
      twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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      • Barolt wrote: View Post
        DeMar's actually shooting better on contested midrange jumpers than on open ones this season. Wide open, 0 dribble shots at 20+ft he's shooting 21% this season.
        This season is different, but the issue has always been the frequency of the shot more than anything.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • Axel wrote: View Post
          This season is different, but the issue has always been the frequency of the shot more than anything.
          http://nbasavant.com/shot_search.php...lMin=0#results

          12/48 at 16-24ft with touch time <2sec and >2ft of seperation. He's just not a good midrange shooter. Also, a lot of other guys on our roster are.
          twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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          • Barolt wrote: View Post
            Well, Jonas, Scola, Joseph, Patterson, Ross are shooting better from 16-23ft than DeMar this season. Personally, I'll take Carroll and Lowry from that range over DeMar as well, despite the percentages. So yeah, I have him 8th.
            I don't understand why you would post something like this. Clearly there is no context here for the type of shots some of those guys take in comparison to DD and the way he is utilized.

            Honest to God, it's nothing personal, when I read stuff like this from what seems like an intelligent poster I can't help but think you don't even believe in what you're posting but you just want to win a debate. It's just argueing for the sake of argueing.

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            • LJ2 wrote: View Post
              I don't understand why you would post something like this. Clearly there is no context here for the type of shots some of those guys take in comparison to DD and the way he is utilized.

              Honest to God, it's nothing personal, when I read stuff like this from what seems like an intelligent poster I can't help but think you don't even believe in what you're posting but you just want to win a debate. It's just argueing for the sake of argueing.
              Like I just posted above, 12/48 from 16-24ft with <2 sec of touch time and >2ft of seperation from his defender. He's not good at midrange shots. Catch and shoot situations, he's shooting 30.9% on 2pt attempts this season. Pull-ups, 40.3% on 2pt attempts.

              Off 0 dribbles, 46.2% on all 2pt attempts(including dunks and layups). Off 3-6 dribbles(where he takes 33% of all shot attempts), 41.8% on 2pt attempts, 14.3% on 3pt attempts.

              Shoots 50.4% on 2pt attempts with 0-2ft of seperation. 25.1% with 6+ft of seperation.
              twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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              • Barolt wrote: View Post
                Well, Jonas, Scola, Joseph, Patterson, Ross are shooting better from 16-23ft than DeMar this season. Personally, I'll take Carroll and Lowry from that range over DeMar as well, despite the percentages. So yeah, I have him 8th.
                You don't consider 10-16 feet as mid range? And as other posters have said/will say, frequency of shots needs to be considered.

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                • tDotted wrote: View Post
                  You don't consider 10-16 feet as mid range? And as other posters have said/will say, frequency of shots needs to be considered.
                  You have to remember, the initial proposition was to run plays to create open '20ft jumpers' for DeMar. That wasn't my proposition, that was what I was replying to.

                  But, to add. In terms of shots >10ft, DeMar takes 3.1 attempts per game from this distance classified as 'open'(4-6ft of seperation). 14.6% of all FGA(2.5 attempts per game) are 2pt attempts in this scenario(>10ft, 4-6ft of seperation). He shoots 38.0% on these attempts, 22.7% on three point attempts in this scenario. He takes 0.5 attempts per game from >10ft with 6+ft of seperation within 2pt range, shoots 11.8% on these attempts.(this could be sample size, the 4-6ft of seperation number likely isn't)
                  twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                  • Barolt wrote: View Post
                    Like I just posted above, 12/48 from 16-24ft with <2 sec of touch time and >2ft of seperation from his defender. He's not good at midrange shots. Catch and shoot situations, he's shooting 30.9% on 2pt attempts this season. Pull-ups, 40.3% on 2pt attempts.

                    Off 0 dribbles, 46.2% on all 2pt attempts(including dunks and layups). Off 3-6 dribbles(where he takes 33% of all shot attempts), 41.8% on 2pt attempts, 14.3% on 3pt attempts.

                    Shoots 50.4% on 2pt attempts with 0-2ft of seperation. 25.1% with 6+ft of seperation.
                    Again, it's about context. DeMar is our feature scoring option. He's in a variety of different situations throughout the shot clock. The quality of his shots are far different from those of Scola for example. He's got to be concerned with viewing the defense in front of him, finding a lane, driving, taking contact, looking at options of guys to hit for an open shot, creating space for himself etc., etc. You're telling me Scola can handle that responsibility, or Carroll, and hit at the same rate? You can't just look at a stat and not interpret all the other things that go into tha stat. It's just common sense.

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                    • Will once again point out, that DD's abilities in the midrange (regardless of how you feel about them) will not have the impact of the proposed alteration because a SG shooting from midrange does not impact the defence as a PF shooting from midrange does.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • LJ2 wrote: View Post
                        Again, it's about context. DeMar is our feature scoring option. He's in a variety of different situations throughout the shot clock. The quality of his shots are far different from those of Scola for example. He's got to be concerned with viewing the defense in front of him, finding a lane, driving, taking contact, looking at options of guys to hit for an open shot, creating space for himself etc., etc. You're telling me Scola can handle that responsibility, or Carroll, and hit at the same rate? You can't just look at a stat and not interpret all the other things that go into tha stat. It's just common sense.
                        What I'm saying is that all of DeMar's midrange numbers are bad. Creating catch and shoot opportunities for him is a bad play. You should never run a play to create a 2pt shot that has less than a 40% chance of going down. Any time you run a play that you know going in generates less than .8 PPP is a terrible waste of a position, and a play call.

                        We can do better, and should do better.
                        twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                        • LJ2 wrote: View Post
                          Again, it's about context. DeMar is our feature scoring option. He's in a variety of different situations throughout the shot clock. The quality of his shots are far different from those of Scola for example. He's got to be concerned with viewing the defense in front of him, finding a lane, driving, taking contact, looking at options of guys to hit for an open shot, creating space for himself etc., etc. You're telling me Scola can handle that responsibility, or Carroll, and hit at the same rate? You can't just look at a stat and not interpret all the other things that go into tha stat. It's just common sense.
                          There's a very large sample size (years in fact) with Demar and mid-range shooting and none of it is pretty. And in every possible context, it doesn't look good. It's why him cutting down on them this season looks so much better.

                          And that's before you take into account that the amount of spacing provided by a SG and a C/PF from the mid range is pretty large. It won't affect the SG but will affect the C/PF.
                          "My biggest concern as a coach is to not confuse winning with progress." - Steve Kerr
                          "If it's unacceptable in defeat, it's unacceptable in victory." - Jeff Van Gundy

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                          • Barolt wrote: View Post
                            What I'm saying is that all of DeMar's midrange numbers are bad. Creating catch and shoot opportunities for him is a bad play. You should never run a play to create a 2pt shot that has less than a 40% chance of going down. Any time you run a play that you know going in generates less than .8 PPP is a terrible waste of a position, and a play call.

                            We can do better, and should do better.
                            Limit his midrange shots maybe, but you can't get rid of them all together. We have to have a midrange game and as I've eluded to, not everyone on this roster is capable of getting their shot off in the same manner a feature scorer is. Not going to harp on this, like I said it should be common sense and quoting stats to say otherwise is just a very crude way at looking at the numbers.

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                            • DeMar is becoming a master of the bank shot.

                              Attempting almost 1 per game and sinking them at a 65% clip.

                              http://www1.vantagesports.com/Articl...4gASIAAMcFC6MQ
                              If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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                              • LJ2 wrote: View Post
                                Limit his midrange shots maybe, but you can't get rid of them all together. We have to have a midrange game and as I've eluded to, not everyone on this roster is capable of getting their shot off in the same manner a feature scorer is. Not going to harp on this, like I said it should be common sense and quoting stats to say otherwise is just a very crude way at looking at the numbers.
                                Quoting stats is a crude way to look at the numbers?

                                Do tell, where are the numbers that make DeMar look good from midrange?

                                You want to talk about the responsibilities of a feature scorer making those numbers harder to get. Jimmy Butler, who is a 'featured scorer', shoots the >10ft, 4-6ft of seperation 2pt jumper at a 45.9% clip, and takes 1.9 of them per game, less than DeMar does.
                                twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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