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  • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Still not comfortable with the max for a player who is below average on defense.

    Sometimes he is even a liability
    Not a huge deal, you just need to surround him with good defenders, Carroll is one when healthy, sadly he really hasn't been for most of this season so far, and a rim protector/defender at PF would definitely help, someone like Ibaka, although we'd have to wait until 2017 for him.

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    • A.I wrote: View Post
      Harden and Griffin are superstar caliber players, Lillard is definitely up there as a star player, DD not so much.
      DeRozan is better than Lillard this season.

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      • JWash wrote: View Post
        No Kidd went from mediocre to very good. It's not the same.

        Kidd only had 2 sub-30% years (his rookie season and 2000-01). He shot 34% from 3 (1.6 makes) and 37% from 3 in his 2nd and 3rd seasons. He was always a passable three-point shooter, he just started to get even better at it after 30, most likely to allow himself to lessen his role on offense and avoid high-impact plays.
        yeah I started pulling stats after I posted that because something seemed off. I was about to post a correction...no need now
        For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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        • not sure what advanced stats say about DeMar's D, but it does look improved. I wouldn't call him a lock down guy yet, but over last year he is solid.
          For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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          • His DRTG is 106 on the season
            For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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            • JWash wrote: View Post
              DeRozan's average defensively, and he's not a liability on that end of the floor.

              Grasping at straws like I said before. And offense gets paid more than defense in the NBA.

              I suppose Houston, Portland and L.A. should've just told Harden, Lillard and Griffin to bugger off then when they were due to be paid.
              SOMETIMES apparently doesn't have meaning as a word to you. He isn't consistently a liability, but sometimes he just doesn't play a lick of defense. He is also a terrible transition defender who rarely makes the right pickup (as I say this he probably will have a great game at it in London lol).

              Defensive stats are wonky at best and are largely affected by team DRATings. He is far from the "above average" defender that many think he is.

              - Griffin is overrated.

              - Lillard has been so much better than DD in his first 3 years in the league that it's not really a good comp (when he was given the contract). Also a proven playoff winner. DD is the opposite.

              - Harden is much better than DD and has proven he can defend, but just doesn't. He is worth the max but I wouldn't pay him the max because he doesn't have the personality to lead as a max player. Seems like a whimpy little b*tch who blames all his problems on other people

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              • I think at this point only Snooch will cry if DD gets re-signed lol.

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                • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                  Still not comfortable with the max for a player who is below average on defense.

                  Sometimes he is even a liability
                  I don't think he's a liability at all. He's pretty much a league average defender from what I can see and the metrics are mostly mixed.

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                  • - Lillard has been so much better than DD in his first 3 years in the league that it's not really a good comp (when he was given the contract). Also a proven playoff winner. DD is the opposite.
                    How is Lillard a proven playoff winner.

                    Portland won 1 post season series with him there and he hit a famous shot.

                    I wouldn't call that such a large body of winning. If you want to make the case he has such good postseason stats, i'm not sure that's true either, last year he wasn't that good at all.

                    EDIT: Now don't get me wrong I love me some Dame and think he's a terrific player and I don't see any reason he won't be a success including in the playoffs. But I don't think his resume (which is also a function of team) is necessarily so illustrative. It also seems to matter if we are making the largely bogus winner argument that without Aldridge he can't even get his team into the playoffs.
                    Last edited by Jrice9; Tue Jan 12, 2016, 12:46 AM.

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                    • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                      SOMETIMES apparently doesn't have meaning as a word to you. He isn't consistently a liability, but sometimes he just doesn't play a lick of defense. He is also a terrible transition defender who rarely makes the right pickup (as I say this he probably will have a great game at it in London lol).

                      Defensive stats are wonky at best and are largely affected by team DRATings. He is far from the "above average" defender that many think he is.

                      - Griffin is overrated.

                      - Lillard has been so much better than DD in his first 3 years in the league that it's not really a good comp (when he was given the contract). Also a proven playoff winner. DD is the opposite.

                      - Harden is much better than DD and has proven he can defend, but just doesn't. He is worth the max but I wouldn't pay him the max because he doesn't have the personality to lead as a max player. Seems like a whimpy little b*tch who blames all his problems on other people
                      Nobody has called him an above average defender lol, so I have absolutely no clue why you're putting that in quotations, I said he was "about average", have a look at my post again. I took issue with the fact that you called him a below average defender who can be a liability out there which is simply not an accurate description of his defense.

                      "Griffin is overrated"... what is that even supposed to mean? How many better power forwards are there than him in the league?

                      Lillard being a proven playoff winner is a hilarious concept. He's won one series and wasn't even close to being the main guy on his team, he just hit the game winning shot. You do realize that Aldridge was absolutely boogeying on Houston in that series with multiple 40 point games right? So if Lowry makes that shot over Pierce is DD a proven playoff winner? Ridiculous.

                      Proven he can defend, but just doesn't. Guess what if you don't defend, you're not a good defender lol. "Proven he can defend" is just some subjective BS to try and elevate him above DeRozan on that end. And I didn't say DD is a better offensive player than Harden, I was just giving examples of players who you were basically suggesting aren't worth the max because they aren't great defenders.

                      If you're not willing to pay Harden the max even, then I'm not sure how the hell you would plan on retaining any elite offensive talents in the league. You call Lillard a "proven playoff winner" and simply ignore the fact that Harden took his team to the conference finals last year and lost to the NBA Champs?

                      So if Harden was on our roster and a pending FA, you'd just let him walk if he was due to get the max? The NBA doesn't work like that dude.

                      Also fwiw I don't think DD is going to get a full max (5 year/145m) contract from the Raptors.

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                      • Jrice9 wrote: View Post
                        I don't think he's a liability at all. He's pretty much a league average defender from what I can see and the metrics are mostly mixed.
                        People see what they want to see. If you're sitting there micro-analyzing DeRozan's defense for 82 games waiting for him to make mistakes, then yup it's very easy to convince yourself that he's a liability on defense by focusing on the negative plays and situations. Meanwhile if you're just watching another player for a couple games a season and focusing on their great defensive plays with a "grass is greener" attitude they're going to look like a very good defender to you.

                        All about perspective.

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                        • The thing with DeMar's defence is that the eye test is very hard to judge it by, and defensive metrics are shaky at best.

                          The reason his defence is hard to judge by the eye test is because of an observation bias that causes us to over-weigh plays where something particularly good or bad happens. DeMar tends to defend the lesser offensive threat, and often ends up the wing who rotates, leaving his man open from three. And yes, because he's not a great defender, he often rotates back out quite late leading to open threes, and especially if he is having a bad stretch of games defensively that will be very noticeable and he'll seem like a terrible defender.

                          Contrast that to when he is having a good stretch of games - all we see is the lack of wide open threes. DD tends not to take the primary offensive player, so we don't see him shutting down any offensive plays by himself outside of occasionally jumping a passing lane for a steal. His good nights come across as neutral because nothing particularly noticeable happens.

                          Then when judging his game, we see roughly the same number of nights where nothing happens and where lots of bad things happen, so the "look" of his defensive game is very, very poor. Part of this is also supported by how bad he was his first few years (every night was a bad night) so there's an underlying assumption that DD is a poor defender that tends to get reinforced, and so he still often gives the impression that he is as poor a defender as he's ever been.

                          I think in reality he is a slightly sub-par defender who can hold his own as the lesser defender on the wing just fine. He's acceptable now, if not quite average in my mind. I think he'd look a lot worse than he does if he was on the primary offensive player at all often, but he's not, and we don't need him to be, so I'm not concerned about it. The key is that he's no longer a massive liability like he was as recently as a few years ago, which means his offensive value (largely being able to carry usage, but also recently his solid efficiency and playmaking as well) can easily outweigh his defensive shortcomings.

                          As for whether you need a top offensive option to be a top defender to get the max, er, obviously not. Most max contracts in history have been given to offensive players who ranged from completely useless to very good defensively, with a pretty even distribution. Defence is cheap in this league.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • JWash wrote: View Post
                            Nobody has called him an above average defender lol, so I have absolutely no clue why you're putting that in quotations, I said he was "about average", have a look at my post again.
                            Important to remember that you aren't the only people in this "conversation".

                            Primer wrote: View Post
                            This is nonsense. I think DD plays even better with a true offensive system. Scoring in iso is the hardest thing to do on offense in the NBA, so how is consistently putting him in that situation putting him in the best position possible?

                            Derozan has a 106 DRtg, 105 is average, so he's just a bit below average this year. He's 10th amongst starting SG, so you could say he is above average for his position.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                              History of the last two years unfortunately favours that outcome.

                              We shall see.

                              I'm really going to be disappointed if status quo remains the same after a possible third consecutive year of first round knockout.
                              First round matchup is critical. If DD could have some playoff success everything will fall into place revving forward.

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                              • Axel wrote: View Post
                                Important to remember that you aren't the only people in this "conversation".
                                Didn't see that my bad.

                                And I know I'm not the only person, just missed that part of that post.

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