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  • Barolt wrote: View Post
    Thinking about the pace discussion, as pace increases turnovers increase for both good and bad teams, but from the data I've seen scoring efficiency only increases for good teams as pace increases.
    In any case, it is all per pass. In theory, in a higher pace you'll just end up with more passes per game, so it gets normalized anyway.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      In any case, it is all per pass. In theory, in a higher pace you'll just end up with more passes per game, so it gets normalized anyway.
      If you wanted to improve his list, wouldn't adding secondary assists also be useful? You can pass with a purpose and not end up with the assist.
      twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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      • Barolt wrote: View Post
        If you wanted to improve his list, wouldn't adding secondary assists also be useful? You can pass with a purpose and not end up with the assist.
        Yeah, but he seemed to want to isolate it to possession-ending passes or else you penalize multiple players for ending a possession with the pass, while crediting only one for the points generated (as points generated don't count hockey assists).
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • DanH wrote: View Post
          Yeah, but he seemed to want to isolate it to possession-ending passes or else you penalize multiple players for ending a possession with the pass, while crediting only one for the points generated (as points generated don't count hockey assists).
          I'm wondering if his normalization per/100 passes might be problematic. It punishes guys for passing but not generating assists. In theory, in order to look great in his system, you should only ever pass once per possession, because any additional pass makes at least one player on your team look bad.
          twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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          • Barolt wrote: View Post
            I'm wondering if his normalization per/100 passes might be problematic. It punishes guys for passing but not generating assists. In theory, in order to look great in his system, you should only ever pass once per possession, because any additional pass makes at least one player on your team look bad.
            Yeah, that's the one real flaw in the stat - normalizing per pass is good in theory, but as I said, it ignores the fact that for many players in certain systems, a good proportion of their passes are never intended to be even remotely likely to generate a scoring chance - they are set-up passes meant to move the defence around a bit before attacking it. The Raptors are a great example of this, and I think a big reason why DD's rating is higher than Kyle's is that half of Kyle's passes are dribble it up, pass to big man at the top of the arc, get ball back two passes later to actually initiate the play.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • Axel wrote: View Post
              6-4 in last 10 isn't that well. It depends on the matchup for me. Paul George and Pacers needs Carroll.
              Why?

              Ross has bottled up Paul George in the past, and DeRozan has been a better player than PG13 this season (talk less of Lowry). We should be able to beat them without Carroll.

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              • JWash wrote: View Post
                Why?

                Ross has bottled up Paul George in the past, and DeRozan has been a better player than PG13 this season (talk less of Lowry). We should be able to beat them without Carroll.
                In the 3 games against the Pacers they've outscored us 99.7-99.0 per game. They are no walk in the park.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • Axel wrote: View Post
                  In the 3 games against the Pacers they've outscored us 99.7-99.0 per game. They are no walk in the park.
                  We also manhandled the Wizards last year. Regular season matchups go out the window in the playoffs. Regular season PERFORMANCE however does not. And if this team shows up and plays to its ability we will beat the Pacers without Carroll.

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                  • JWash wrote: View Post
                    Why?

                    Ross has bottled up Paul George in the past, and DeRozan has been a better player than PG13 this season (talk less of Lowry). We should be able to beat them without Carroll.
                    I don't know about that. Paul George doesn't take as many dumb shots. You know, the hand in the face early in the shot clock. The mid range fade away when there's room to take it inside. George has much higher efficiency and he's clearly better on defense. If I had to choose between those two guys I'd take George without blinking.

                    DeRozan needs to improve on making everyone else better around him and focus less on getting his. He doesn't let the game come to him.

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                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      I don't know about that. Paul George doesn't take as many dumb shots. You know, the hand in the face early in the shot clock. The mid range fade away when there's room to take it inside. George has much higher efficiency and he's clearly better on defense. If I had to choose between those two guys I'd take George without blinking.
                      Actually he does take a lot of dumb shots. Paul George doesn't get to the rim nearly as much as DeMar and likes to shoot a lot of contested long 2s and threes. And their efficiency is almost the same this year (both around 55 TS%) and DeMar has a better WS/48.

                      You're just looking at the name man. PG13 is only better than DeMar on the defensive end (by a mile, but still) on offense it's a wash but I think DeMar is actually more consistent because he doesn't rely on 7 3PT attempts per game when he's only a above average (37.4%) but not amazing 3PT shooter.

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                      • JWash wrote: View Post
                        Actually he does take a lot of dumb shots. Paul George doesn't get to the rim nearly as much as DeMar and likes to shoot a lot of contested long 2s and threes. And their efficiency is almost the same this year (both around 55 TS%) and DeMar has a better WS/48.

                        You're just looking at the name man. PG13 is only better than DeMar on the defensive end (by a mile, but still) on offense it's a wash but I think DeMar is actually more consistent because he doesn't rely on 7 3PT attempts per game when he's only a above average (37.4%) but not amazing 3PT shooter.
                        Alright, well I'm not with you on DeRozan and if he doesn't change his approach he's going end up capping out at a level of a Corey Maggette. That's where he's at right now and he pretty much goes about business the same way, collecting stats. Maybe he changes after his contract gets done but right now he's going it alone on many possessions when his number is called. It's painful at times, especially when you ponder his ability to play a smart, more inclusive game.

                        http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

                        Corey Maggette is averaging 19.7 points per game, but his somewhat selfish play hasn't gone unnoticed by other players.

                        According to sources, after the final buzzer against Boston, Kevin Garnett turned to Maggette and shouted, "Way to get your numbers."

                        "He just puts his head down and goes to the basket," an Eastern Conference scout said. "He doesn't even look to pass."
                        http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...ggette-Signing

                        Sound familiar? This is partially why the Raptors got their asses kicked last night. Instead of taking his teammates to the next level to match Durant and Westbrook he tried to get his. It's a team game. If he's gonna play this way long term he needs to be third star on the team.

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                        • I have to ask you though Apollo have you watched Paul George play before? He's basically like DeRozan offensively. He can be a good playmaker when he focuses on it, but often his shot selection can be really bad and he gets tunnel vision and gets really trigger happy with his jumpshot. At least this year when DeRozan does get tunnel vision it's going to the basket where you've got a better chance of getting fouled or making a basket. Both of them playmake at about the same rate, but George is much more prone to turning over the basketball. And that's with George also having the benefit of playing with an uptempo team that creates a lot of turnovers (which means more run-outs and easy fast break baskets), while the Raptors play at a really slow pace.

                          Tbh I actually think DeRozan is a better offensive player than Paul George, and the numbers support that. To be fair George doesn't have a Lowry to play off of, but looking at a straight one to one comparison, their efficiency is about the same but DeRozan's style of play is more consistent from game to game (in terms of results), he turns it over less, he has much better offensive win shares and oRTG and this is with both of them handling around the same usage rate.

                          I don't really get the relevance of the Maggette comparison. Maggette was out getting numbers for bad teams with bad offenses. DeRozan is the primary usage handler for a top 5 offense in the league. The way he plays is leading to efficient offensive production. To say he's out there collecting stats is a comment that goes out the window when you see that he's helping his team win a significant number of games. His role is to handle a large offensive load and handle it with reasonable efficiency, which he's been doing this year above-average efficiency. The only time I have an issue with DeRozan is when he starts settling for jumpers instead of either attacking or moving the ball, which he has done extremely infrequently this year.

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                          • DeMar was actually shooting over 40% from three during January and February, came back down to 33% for March. He shoots it at 38.5% at the ACC vs. 29.9% on the road and 37.8% in wins vs. 26.2% in losses.

                            DeMar's 3 ball - the secret key to the Raptors success?
                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                            • Demar is doing a pretty good job of proving some of us doubters wrong.

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                              • Apologies if this has been posted but here's a link to an interesting little discussion about how Demar's shoe deal is expiring this summer, and the impact this could have on his free agency (skip to the 54:00 mark, because you definitely don't want to listen to Joey Crawford): https://art19.com/shows/vertical/epi...7-4a786a3373a0

                                Basically he's saying that if Demar goes to the Lakers, the extra money that he'd make on his shoe deal would cover or exceed the difference of the Raptors vs. Lakers contract offer.
                                "Stop eating your sushi."
                                "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                                "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                                - Jack Armstrong

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