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  • golden wrote: View Post
    I think this is more of a system thing rather than a.... "Wow. DeMar really improved over this summer" thing. Looking at the yearly team stats (per 100 poss), it's pretty clear that the team was deliberately minimizing passing and prioritizing getting to the FT line as a way to increase offensive efficiency, prior to this season.

    Whether that was Kyle & DeMar not buying in or trusting teammates until this year, or Casey promoting that style until Masai mandated it, we'll probably never know. But DeMar is coachable and always has been.
    For sure the correct answer is "all of the above," credit to management, coaching, and players for both making a major shift in play this year and for incorporating and continuing to develop all this young talent at the same time. Collectively, they're accomplishing something really amazing that doesn't happen very often. Normal caveat of the fact that this is all going to come down to the playoffs, but they're doing as much as anyone could expect with what they have in the cupboard right now.

    How about this - DeMar's AST% has steadily increased season over season, from 4.9 in his rookie year to 24 this year. That's a 500% increase. He's accomplished that while holding his TOV's relatively steady.
    "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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    • S.R. wrote: View Post
      For sure the correct answer is "all of the above," credit to management, coaching, and players for both making a major shift in play this year and for incorporating and continuing to develop all this young talent at the same time. Collectively, they're accomplishing something really amazing that doesn't happen very often. Normal caveat of the fact that this is all going to come down to the playoffs, but they're doing as much as anyone could expect with what they have in the cupboard right now.

      How about this - DeMar's AST% has steadily increased season over season, from 4.9 in his rookie year to 24 this year. That's a 500% increase. He's accomplished that while holding his TOV's relatively steady.
      Now's the time to take your sig file and hang it from the ACC rafters in letters 6 feet high.

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      • S.R. wrote: View Post
        For sure the correct answer is "all of the above," credit to management, coaching, and players for both making a major shift in play this year and for incorporating and continuing to develop all this young talent at the same time. Collectively, they're accomplishing something really amazing that doesn't happen very often. Normal caveat of the fact that this is all going to come down to the playoffs, but they're doing as much as anyone could expect with what they have in the cupboard right now.

        How about this - DeMar's AST% has steadily increased season over season, from 4.9 in his rookie year to 24 this year. That's a 500% increase. He's accomplished that while holding his TOV's relatively steady.
        I really don't get this fawning over of the change in style of play, when we're basically playing catch-up with the modern NBA game - or even just a normal passing game. We were 29th and 30th in AST per 100 possessions the last 2 seasons - that's not an accident. It's like the team conditioned the fanbase to accept extreme levels of no-passing as the defacto way of playing, which many fans were vehemently against and correctly reasoned would be easy to shut-down in the playoffs.

        If we are to praise KL/DD/Casey for the change to ball-movement this season, then there also needs to be a parallel conversation about why did it take 4 or so seasons to do it and who was resisting that change.
        Last edited by golden; Mon Dec 11, 2017, 12:45 PM.

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        • Man he's good though.

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          • golden wrote: View Post
            I really don't get this fawning over of the change in style of play, when we're basically playing catch-up with the modern NBA game - over even just a normal passing game. We were 29th and 30th in AST per possession the last 2 seasons - that's not an accident. It's like the team conditioned the fanbase to accept extreme levels of no-passing as the defacto way of playing, which many fans were vehemently against and correctly reasoned would be easy to shut-down in the playoffs.

            If we are to praise, KL/DD/Casey for the change to ball-movement this season, then there also needs to be a parallel conversation about why did it take 4 or so seasons to do it and who was resisting that change.
            Don't completely disagree. But the three most successful seasons in franchise history while they were trying to see where the core players would take them. Not knowing whether the players you had could consistently get into the second round and maybe thinking they couldn't handle a pass happy offence.

            I would say that the emergence of DD as a capable passer last season, the discovery of FVV as a capable passer, the agility of Siakim and Poet to handle passes in transition and traffic and OG's quick recovery (which Raptor management could see was going to happen) have all conspired to make moving to a faster tempo, three shooting and high passing team a much easier evolution than at any other time in the last decade.

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            • Puffer wrote: View Post
              Don't completely disagree. But the three most successful seasons in franchise history while they were trying to see where the core players would take them. Not knowing whether the players you had could consistently get into the second round and maybe thinking they couldn't handle a pass happy offence.

              I would say that the emergence of DD as a capable passer last season, the discovery of FVV as a capable passer, the agility of Siakim and Poet to handle passes in transition and traffic and OG's quick recovery (which Raptor management could see was going to happen) have all conspired to make moving to a faster tempo, three shooting and high passing team a much easier evolution than at any other time in the last decade.
              Disagree. I'll give you transition game, but I don't see how FVV/Siakam/Yak/OG is somehow intrinsically better at ball movement than CoJo/Patterson/Tucker/Carroll. If nothing else, the latter unit is far superior at 3-point shooting and it's not even close. And don't forget that we did have Siakam starting last year, so there's that too.

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              • golden wrote: View Post
                I really don't get this fawning over of the change in style of play, when we're basically playing catch-up with the modern NBA game - or even just a normal passing game. We were 29th and 30th in AST per 100 possessions the last 2 seasons - that's not an accident. It's like the team conditioned the fanbase to accept extreme levels of no-passing as the defacto way of playing, which many fans were vehemently against and correctly reasoned would be easy to shut-down in the playoffs.

                If we are to praise KL/DD/Casey for the change to ball-movement this season, then there also needs to be a parallel conversation about why did it take 4 or so seasons to do it and who was resisting that change.
                All true enough, but we filled pages in this forum over the last 3-4 years with the conversation over previous lack of passing. I don't think there was any lack of representation on the arguments against that system or the pressing need for change.

                Somebody linked back to the "culture change" thread after Masai's year end presser - go take a look at it. Most of us thought it was management bullshit and that this team wouldn't be able to do it. So there's one answer to your question. The failed "Mo Shats" experiment is another. And yes, while a lot of teams move the ball now, a lot of them churn through coaches and players on their way to this kind of change. The Raps are accomplishing it in one offseason with everybody in-house.
                Last edited by S.R.; Mon Dec 11, 2017, 02:41 PM.
                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                • golden wrote: View Post
                  I really don't get this fawning over of the change in style of play, when we're basically playing catch-up with the modern NBA game - or even just a normal passing game. We were 29th and 30th in AST per 100 possessions the last 2 seasons - that's not an accident. It's like the team conditioned the fanbase to accept extreme levels of no-passing as the defacto way of playing, which many fans were vehemently against and correctly reasoned would be easy to shut-down in the playoffs.

                  If we are to praise KL/DD/Casey for the change to ball-movement this season, then there also needs to be a parallel conversation about why did it take 4 or so seasons to do it and who was resisting that change.
                  What an absolute irritant of a post. Who fucking cares, the style HAS changed now. Stop looking back on a style we no longer play.

                  And btw there is no guarantee this style gets us further in the playoffs.

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                  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                    And btw there is no guarantee this style gets us further in the playoffs.
                    I'm rubbing my lucky Buddha for a Celtics vs. Cavs 2nd round match-up.
                    "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                    • S.R. wrote: View Post
                      I'm rubbing my lucky Buddha for a Celtics vs. Cavs 2nd round match-up.
                      Better yet, a Raptors vs Celtics 2nd round matchup.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • We've gone from being Top 10 in ISO's the past couple of years to 24th, tied with GSW at 6.1%. Oddly (or maybe not) of the 7 teams that run the most ISO this season, 3 of them are the Rockets, Cavs and Celtics.
                        If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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                        • DanH wrote: View Post
                          Better yet, a Raptors vs Celtics 2nd round matchup.
                          This. I don't want the Cavs to knock them out. I want us to do it.

                          Then we don't have to hear this shit about they're a title contender ever again. If they lose to the Cavs in 6 because LBJ falls asleep for two games we'll never hear the end of it.

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                          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                            This. I don't want the Cavs to knock them out. I want us to do it.

                            Then we don't have to hear this shit about they're a title contender ever again. If they lose to the Cavs in 6 because LBJ falls asleep for two games we'll never hear the end of it.
                            But without Hayward, the Celtics have a built-in excuse, no matter how they get eliminated.

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                            • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                              But without Hayward, the Celtics have a built-in excuse, no matter how they get eliminated.
                              They can have their excuses so long as we get to watch them head home with their tails between their legs, first hand.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                              • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                But without Hayward, the Celtics have a built-in excuse, no matter how they get eliminated.
                                They don't have shit. If you win 55-60 odd games like they're probably going to, you don't get to say "b-b-b-but Hayward was out". I mean it's a valid excuse but it's irrelevant in the context of the media narrative this season. The media is talking about them being a threat to the Cavs without Hayward, so stomping little Toronto should be no problem right?

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