Everything Derozan

[mcHAPPY]

The reason the debate can't be a civil one is that posters like you state under rating as though it is a fact, immediately dismissing the other poster's opinion, and don't provide evidence of why DeRozan provides more than 6-8M of value to his team.

I'll start. DeRozan has consistently over the past couple years posted average impact ratings (RPM) and as such is an average player worth the average salary. Right now that average is about 6M, and it will go up to a little over 8M next summer.

See, evidence to support a claim. Now, that's clearly not the entire picture, but it's a concrete start that can be countered.

Yeah, but he scores 20 points per game, DanH.

[Axel]

Yep. But his point stands. The cap will likely never be nearly as low as it is now.

Yes, but OSK's point remains valid too. We can't sign a bunch of long term deals based on the 2016 cap figure since it will come back down.

2018 (or whatever year it is) is the cap figure we need to aim for (difficult since we wont know the figure in advance).

McRealistic's comment seemed more short sighted (2016 cap increase) while OSK was pointing to the long term (or perhaps I am simply giving him more credit than is due - he'll have to speak for himself).

[OldSkoolCool]

The reason the debate can't be a civil one is that posters like you state under rating as though it is a fact, immediately dismissing the other poster's opinion, and don't provide evidence of why DeRozan provides more than 6-8M of value to his team.

I'll start. DeRozan has consistently over the past couple years posted average impact ratings (RPM) and as such is an average player worth the average salary. Right now that average is about 6M, and it will go up to a little over 8M next summer.

See, evidence to support a claim. Now, that's clearly not the entire picture, but it's a concrete start that can be countered.

Thanks DanH.

DeRozan can be an all-star in the league in the future if he accepts a role coming off the bench as a scorer/distributor. However, he is going to have to accept being paid like one and put his ego aside to accept that role. Which isn't going to happen after being gifted his role/free reign under the Casey era, he is going to want to be a number 1/2 option, and paid like one. Unfortunately like DanH said, he isn't anything more than an average RPM.

Actually that is another question for the Keep DD group. It has been repeatedly stated that DD is best served as a third option on a team, but do you think he is willing to accept that role after how he has been a #1 option for so many years?

[DanH]

Yes, but OSK's point remains valid too. We can't sign a bunch of long term deals based on the 2016 cap figure since it will come back down.

2018 (or whatever year it is) is the cap figure we need to aim for (difficult since we wont know the figure in advance).

McRealistic's comment seemed more short sighted (2016 cap increase) while OSK was pointing to the long term (or perhaps I am simply giving him more credit than is due - he'll have to speak for himself).

Whoa, hold up there. The cap isn't coming down from 2016. It's coming down from the 2017 overshoot. Has to do with there being so much cap room in 2016 - it means almost every team will be spending to the cap but not beyond it (it is very difficult to spend cap space AND go well abov the cap in the same year). The cap calculation takes overspending and underspending into account, so since teams will be dramatically underspending (with the soft cap essentially a ceiling for 25 teams), the cap will go up AGAIN the following year. A lot.

2016 is projected at 89M (a huge jump from our current 67M). The over-correction in 2017 pushes it all the way up to 108M. Then finally the cap normalizes around 100M, with 2 or 3 M growths per year (predicted).

So the cap coming back down is still well above what the cap is in 2016.

[McRealistic]

Yeah see, this is why the DeRozan debate can never be a civil one.

This is a massive underrating of both DeRozan's worth and ability on the court. Obviously he's not a franchise player, but you don't need to undersell him like this to make your point. DeRozan is most definitely worth more than 6-8M per season.

Of course he is. There is anti DD agenda with some poster. In a league that G.V. is getting 6-7 million a year, a guy like DD is worth anywhere from 12-15. Now, considering that Cap will raise by almost 30 million within the next few years, you can project it to pay this guy almost 18-20.

[DanH]

Of course he is. There is anti DD agenda with some poster. In a league that G.V. is getting 6-7 million a year, a guy like DD is worth anywhere from 12-15. Now, considering that Cap will raise by almost 30 million within the next few years, you can project it to pay this guy almost 18-20.

Yeah, but GV is dramatically overpaid for his production.

We're not talking about market here - we're talking about pay versus production.

[Primer]

The reason the debate can't be a civil one is that posters like you state under rating as though it is a fact, immediately dismissing the other poster's opinion, and don't provide evidence of why DeRozan provides more than 6-8M of value to his team.

I'll start. DeRozan has consistently over the past couple years posted average impact ratings (RPM) and as such is an average player worth the average salary. Right now that average is about 6M, and it will go up to a little over 8M next summer.

See, evidence to support a claim. Now, that's clearly not the entire picture, but it's a concrete start that can be countered.

(WAR = Wins above replacement) (RPM = Real Plus Minus) (ORPM = Offensive RPM) (DRPM = Defensive RPM)
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm

Let's use these stats to take a look at the available FA to see where we should spend our money best.

I've listed the available FA in descending order of WAR. I like it a bit better than RPM, but I use both. If I forgot someone, let me know and I'll edit them into the post. To keep with the title of the thread I've included Derozan, and for fun I also included Lowry.

ORPM DRPM RPM WAR
Draymond Green
1.52 5.24 6.76 14.74
Kawhi Leonard
2.97 4.60 7.57 12.67
Khris Middleton
1.97 4.10 6.07 12.44
Danny Green
3.24 2.16 5.40 10.98
Paul Millsap
2.77 2.20 4.97 10.84
Jimmy Butler
3.85 0.44 4.29 10.29
Kyle Lowry
2.58 1.25 3.83 9.28
Luol Deng
3.69 -0.32 3.37 8.41
Greg Monroe
0.36 2.30 2.66 6.51
Mike Dunleavy
1.15 2.16 3.31 6.36
Louis Williams
4.48 -1.96 2.52 6.02
Thaddeus Young
0.04 1.14 1.18 5.35
Amir Johnson
0.50 1.32 1.82 5.08
Jared Dudley
-0.11 2.47 2.36 5.03
Tristan Thompson
1.85 -0.72 1.13 4.60
Al-Farouq Aminu
-0.27 2.91 2.64 4.29
DeMarre Carroll
1.02 -0.56 0.46 3.82
DeMar DeRozan
0.22 -0.37 -0.15 2.85
Jae Crowder
0.62 -1.07 -0.45 1.98
Tobias Harris
-0.33 -2.20 -2.53 -0.26

Observations:
Maybe there's a reason Orlando doesn't want to pay Harris a bunch of money?
Danny Green is looking like a really good play in free agency, he's UFA and I think he's gettable for anywhere $10-15M.
Leonard, Green, Middleton, and Butler all deserve max deals and I expect their current teams to give them one or match one.
If we're going PF we might as well offer Millsap all our cap space and see what he says.
Lowry is still really really good.
Deng is an interesting vet. His defense is subpar though and how long can his offense hold up.
SVG did something to fix Monroe's defense, but what happened to his offense?
Dunleavy is another interesting vet play, and he still plays good defense. Could be a cheaper better replacement for Lou.
Young is probably going to get overpaid.
Dudley could be a nice backup value pickup for the bench.
Tristan is probably going to get overpaid.
Aminu provides really good defense, seems like a decent backup plan if we don't get the main targets.
Maybe we should stay away from Carroll. Ditto Crowder.

[Axel]

Whoa, hold up there. The cap isn't coming down from 2016. It's coming down from the 2017 overshoot. Has to do with there being so much cap room in 2016 - it means almost every team will be spending to the cap but not beyond it (it is very difficult to spend cap space AND go well abov the cap in the same year). The cap calculation takes overspending and underspending into account, so since teams will be dramatically underspending (with the soft cap essentially a ceiling for 25 teams), the cap will go up AGAIN the following year. A lot.

2016 is projected at 89M (a huge jump from our current 67M). The over-correction in 2017 pushes it all the way up to 108M. Then finally the cap normalizes around 100M, with 2 or 3 M growths per year (predicted).

So the cap coming back down is still well above what the cap is in 2016.

I fully understand that the cap isn't coming down from now or 2016. Give me some credit Dan. Just cause I don't know the figures off my heart doesn't mean I don't get it.

But that 2018 figure - that needs to be our long term consideration when signing any player to a deal that extends beyond 2017. Player decline, options, etc all are part of that consideration too.

[MACK11]

Trade him, Don't pay him shit

[McRealistic]

Yeah, but GV is dramatically overpaid for his production.

We're not talking about market here - we're talking about pay versus production.

If you look at the thread from last summer, I was one of the guys who said G.V. was over paid while mcHappy and ... were claiming he was not.

Production in NBA is meaningless ( unfortunately) and it is the market that defines the value of the player. Add to that the fact that Toronto is a not a great FA destination, does not have a successful wining record, then we may need to over pay and go based on the market value rather than the production.

[Axel]

If you look at the thread from last summer, I was one of the guys who said G.V. was over paid while mcHappy and ... were claiming he was not.

Production in NBA is meaningless ( unfortunately) and it is the market that defines the value of the player. Add to that the fact that Toronto is a not a great FA destination, does not have a successful wining record, then we may need to over pay and go based on the market value rather than the production.

I would like proof of that. Especially since you only joined RR in February of 2015.

Have you finally admitted that you are a previously banned member?

[special1]

What's the most you would pay DeMar after next season?

And then the cap goes down and DD has a worse contract for production than Joe Johnson

Serious DD is worth about 6-8 mil as a bench scorer, because that is all he will be on any other team than TO. Guy is gifted so many play sets run for him

Guess it depends on whether you think he's a starter or not.

If you see him in a Lou Williams role, then $8M is fair (with the cap jump).

Yeah see, this is why the DeRozan debate can never be a civil one.

This is a massive underrating of both DeRozan's worth and ability on the court. Obviously he's not a franchise player, but you don't need to undersell him like this to make your point. DeRozan is most definitely worth more than 6-8M per season.

But but.... Aren't we going to get a top 10 pick for this guy???

Both Axel and OLdSkool.... Interesting fellows I tell ya!

Using their own words.....Demar is apparently an Inefficient bench chucker who will get us a lottery pick. LOL. I can't wrap my head around you two. I finally realized what it is..... Deep down inside you guys think he's a good player. You just hate him. Explain why you think Teams will give us lottery pick(s) and or/ very good players for a 6-8 mil bench player that they can just pick up in free agency (LOU WILL).

Who can take you two seriously?? He's a bench player (your words) but let's trade him before he walks. Why? Who cares if an inefficient bench player walks? Oh right.... Asset management. Where were all these same people at the trade deadline and throughout the season demanding that we trade the same calibre bench player (Lou Will)?? Why is it okay that he leaves for nothing? DanH any ideas?

The question is.....Why do you guys treat him like an all star (value wise) in some of your posts and insinuate that he's an inefficient bench player in others? I guess whenever it suits your narrative. He's only a good player when it comes to bringing back lottery picks. But Would you guys give up a lottery pick for Lou Will?

Funny thing is you guys de-value your own assets for years! Playing Fantasy basketball..... Tell everyone your player sucks and then ask others for their lottery picks for said player. Lol.... Then expect a good return on top of that! It's hilarious.....

For new posters - I will distinguish the difference between the two. OLdSkool is off his rockers and thinks we're improved just by letting Demar go. Yet, if we won 3rd and 4th seeds with this guy.....How are we planning to stay in the lottery with a better player (Ross - pink font) taking his place? Axel flip flops back and forth (I'm guessing to piss of the Demar fans) but he's smart enough to know that Demar does have more value than he gives him credit for. He searches deep for any advanced stat that will support the narrative and even goes as far as to minimize Demar's accomplishments. Great asset management type of guys these two are. Put it all on the Internet for the other GMs (pink font) to see.


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[Fully]

$15 million after the cap jump.

[mcHAPPY]

If you look at the thread from last summer, I was one of the guys who said G.V. was over paid while mcHappy and ... were claiming he was not.

Production in NBA is meaningless ( unfortunately) and it is the market that defines the value of the player. Add to that the fact that Toronto is a not a great FA destination, does not have a successful wining record, then we may need to over pay and go based on the market value rather than the production.

How were you here last summer?

You only joined in February 2015.

Now I'm no MODERATOR or Doc Naismith, but guys get banned for multiple accounts or rejoining after being banned, you know.

[mcHAPPY]

I would like proof of that. Especially since you only joined RR in February of 2015.

Have you finally admitted that you are a previously banned member?

LOL

Dude we've been on too much of the same wave length of late.

I think I'm going to take a timeout.