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  • Axel wrote: View Post
    Long term, I think Vonleh is better than DD. Vonleh projects to be a legit stretch 4 who can rebound. That is significantly better than DD. Vonleh was an elite college rebounder, with 7'4 wingspan (2nd best in his draft class) and a smooth shooting stroke.

    Charlotte didn't play him, but he produced when they did. MJ's impatience works against him (again).

    Anything after that is gravy.
    I just look at it like this. Philly when they traded Jrue Holiday to NOLA for 6th plus their 2014 1st, probably thought that Noel alone would or could become better than Jrue long-term, but they still got ANOTHER lottery pick out of the trade. That's what it would take for me to be willing to do a deal (not that exact deal, but the same kind of concept). Henderson and 23 don't do that for me as the former is garbage (except when he plays against DD ironically) and #23 is a role player level prospect unless we get very lucky.

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    • planetmars wrote: View Post
      Do you believe DeMar will be back with Toronto next season and at a reasonable value? His value is at its highest now. Nobody will give anything of value at the deadline for an expiring.. and after the season is over, DD's value could be zero.
      I don't understand the point of this question.

      If we trade DeRozan obviously it needs to be during the offseason. I don't think he needs to be traded though, so I would only trade him if we're getting significant value back in the trade. Last year's 9th overall pick who showed nothing last year (even though I rate him very highly as a prospect) is not gonna cut it. The other stuff to me is nice but it's really just filler.

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      • JWash wrote: View Post
        I just look at it like this. Philly when they traded Jrue Holiday to NOLA for 6th plus their 2014 1st, probably thought that Noel alone would or could become better than Jrue long-term, but they still got ANOTHER lottery pick out of the trade. That's what it would take for me to be willing to do a deal (not that exact deal, but the same kind of concept). Henderson and 23 don't do that for me as the former is garbage (except when he plays against DD ironically) and #23 is a role player level prospect unless we get very lucky.
        But Jrue Holiday's value is completely irrelevant to DD's.

        Jrue was younger, played a premier position, and signed for a long term deal (at a decent rate).

        Plus trading for an unknown pick has more risk than a known prospect. Picks have a greater volatility in their trade value, as it depends on so many factors (draft class, lotto results, teams ahead in draft).

        So yes or no, do you think Vonleh will be better than DD?
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • JWash wrote: View Post
          I don't understand the point of this question.

          If we trade DeRozan obviously it needs to be during the offseason. I don't think he needs to be traded though, so I would only trade him if we're getting significant value back in the trade. Last year's 9th overall pick who showed nothing last year (even though I rate him very highly as a prospect) is not gonna cut it. The other stuff to me is nice but it's really just filler.
          Point is, DD is going to get a new contract next year and that is a huge part of his trade value calculation.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • Axel wrote: View Post
            But Jrue Holiday's value is completely irrelevant to DD's.

            Jrue was younger, played a premier position, and signed for a long term deal (at a decent rate).

            Plus trading for an unknown pick has more risk than a known prospect. Picks have a greater volatility in their trade value, as it depends on so many factors (draft class, lotto results, teams ahead in draft).

            So yes or no, do you think Vonleh will be better than DD?
            I don't think it's irrelevant, but if that's your opinion, fine.

            The premier position point doesn't make sense to me considering that there are a lot more PGs that are as good as if not better than Jrue than there are SGs that are the same for DeRozan. SG is a much weaker position than PG. So the replaceability there on Jrue is a lot higher.

            The other point about trading for an unknown pick. I'd imagine that Masai wouldn't complete any trade involving a pick in this draft until the pick is actually on the board or about to be. That tends to be what happens so teams can secure one of their targets or their one specific target after the trade.

            This is not as simple as a yes or no question. The chance of Vonleh being a better player than DD is not high enough for me trade DeRozan essentially straight up for him with other filler involved.

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            • Axel wrote: View Post
              Point is, DD is going to get a new contract next year and that is a huge part of his trade value calculation.
              That is obvious. As is Batum.

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              • JWash wrote: View Post
                I don't think it's irrelevant, but if that's your opinion, fine.

                The premier position point doesn't make sense to me considering that there are a lot more PGs that are as good as if not better than Jrue than there are SGs that are the same for DeRozan. SG is a much weaker position than PG. So the replaceability there on Jrue is a lot higher.

                The other point about trading for an unknown pick. I'd imagine that Masai wouldn't complete any trade involving a pick in this draft until the pick is actually on the board or about to be. That tends to be what happens so teams can secure one of their targets or their one specific target after the trade.

                This is not as simple as a yes or no question. The chance of Vonleh being a better player than DD is not high enough for me trade DeRozan essentially straight up for him with other filler involved.
                Perhaps irrelevant isn't the right word; comparable. What a PG who was younger and locked up got in trade return 2 years ago doesn't have significant bearing on the trade value of a SG with an opt out today.

                And yes, it is a simple yes or no. Winning a trade is based entirely on who develops into what, and you need to take a stand on what you believe a player will be when you are trading for prospects/picks.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • Axel wrote: View Post
                  Perhaps irrelevant isn't the right word; comparable. What a PG who was younger and locked up got in trade return 2 years ago doesn't have significant bearing on the trade value of a SG with an opt out today.

                  And yes, it is a simple yes or no. Winning a trade is based entirely on who develops into what, and you need to take a stand on what you believe a player will be when you are trading for prospects/picks.
                  When I first saw this trade of Batum to Charlotte, I actually got excited at the fact that DeRozan would likely be able to draw significantly more value than that in a deal. Seeing people being willing to trade DD for the same package that a lesser player and lesser value player got makes no sense to me.

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                  • JWash wrote: View Post
                    When I first saw this trade of Batum to Charlotte, I actually got excited at the fact that DeRozan would likely be able to draw significantly more value than that in a deal. Seeing people being willing to trade DD for the same package that a lesser player and lesser value player got makes no sense to me.
                    Well the Batum deal is certainly more comparable to DD's value than the Holiday deal. Both are wingers, on expiring deals around the same age.

                    I think for Charlotte to throw in 9th, more pieces would have had to have been involved. Perhaps Ross and/or PPatt on our side, plus likely Lance, Zeller on their end.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                    • Axel wrote: View Post
                      Well the Batum deal is certainly more comparable to DD's value than the Holiday deal. Both are wingers, on expiring deals around the same age.

                      I think for Charlotte to throw in 9th, more pieces would have had to have been involved. Perhaps Ross and/or PPatt on our side, plus likely Lance, Zeller on their end.
                      Evan Turner is also a wing, with an expiring deal, who is around the same age. For the record.

                      Charlotte doesn't have Lance anymore, and maybe you do have to throw in Ross but it's kind of pointless even discussing that atm because that trade is no longer possible.

                      I want to get a lot of value back for DD, that Batum deal doesn't cut it. If that's the best you can get you don't deal him. I feel it's not a necessity for him to be moved, however I think you feel it is hence your willingness to potentially lose or get not-the-best value back in a trade as long as he has been shipped out.

                      I don't have any sort of dislike or distaste for any of our players really. Nobody needs to go (although changes do need to be made). I'm not against trading anyone or for shipping anyone out. Definitely shop everybody and see what's out there if there's something great, take it. Hopefully there is. This isn't it.

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                      • JWash wrote: View Post
                        Evan Turner is also a wing, with an expiring deal, who is around the same age. For the record.

                        Charlotte doesn't have Lance anymore, and maybe you do have to throw in Ross but it's kind of pointless even discussing that atm because that trade is no longer possible.

                        I want to get a lot of value back for DD, that Batum deal doesn't cut it. If that's the best you can get you don't deal him. I feel it's not a necessity for him to be moved, however I think you feel it is hence your willingness to potentially lose or get not-the-best value back in a trade as long as he has been shipped out.
                        What does Evan Turner have to do with anything?

                        Obviously Lance is gone, but I'm talking about the initial trade discussions, surrounding proposals we have talked about on this forum for months (since before you joined).

                        A lot of value for DD is the kicker, you obvious aren't willing to go on record as to whether Vonleh is going to be better than DD, so I assume you are saying no. In my eyes, Vonleh will be the superior player (a Bosh-Love hybrid) and that alone is worth DD.

                        I would trade Demar 100% this off-season. He isn't going to be willing to take a contract extension at the amount I feel he is worth. He will be overpaid by someone, I just don't want it to be us. If he walks, and you missed out on Vonleh and #23 (or any prosposed return), then you fail as a GM.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                        • Axel wrote: View Post
                          What does Evan Turner have to do with anything?

                          Obviously Lance is gone, but I'm talking about the initial trade discussions, surrounding proposals we have talked about on this forum for months (since before you joined).

                          A lot of value for DD is the kicker, you obvious aren't willing to go on record as to whether Vonleh is going to be better than DD, so I assume you are saying no. In my eyes, Vonleh will be the superior player (a Bosh-Love hybrid) and that alone is worth DD.

                          I would trade Demar 100% this off-season. He isn't going to be willing to take a contract extension at the amount I feel he is worth. He will be overpaid by someone, I just don't want it to be us. If he walks, and you missed out on Vonleh and #23 (or any prosposed return), then you fail as a GM.
                          Yep and this is why we're not gonna agree on this. So end of discussion.

                          Just needed you to say that. You feel DeRozan has to be traded so you take what you can get, I feel he doesn't so you trade him if it's a big win for the team long-term.

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                          • JWash wrote: View Post
                            Yep and this is why we're not gonna agree on this. So end of discussion.

                            Just needed you to say that. You feel DeRozan has to be traded so you take what you can get, I feel he doesn't so you trade him if it's a big win for the team long-term.
                            It's not a fire sale if you are landing Vonleh. We need rebounding (he was an elite rebounder in college), defence (great wingspan and motor inside) and shooting (he projects very well as a stretch 4). He fills a lot of our team needs, is on a great contract, and is by all accounts a great kid. He is worth making the deal for.

                            Now back to reality, now that Vonleh is gone, yes, the options for trading DD may have gone down imo. The longer you wait past the draft, the less the return.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • Axel wrote: View Post
                              It's not a fire sale if you are landing Vonleh. We need rebounding (he was an elite rebounder in college), defence (great wingspan and motor inside) and shooting (he projects very well as a stretch 4). He fills a lot of our team needs, is on a great contract, and is by all accounts a great kid. He is worth making the deal for.

                              Now back to reality, now that Vonleh is gone, yes, the options for trading DD may have gone down imo. The longer you wait past the draft, the less the return.
                              if i'm trading DeRozan for a prospect it sure as hell isn't for need. We don't NEED a PG but I'd trade him for Mudiay or Russell in 2 seconds because those guys are actually very likely to be perennial all-star guys. I want a prospect that I'm pretty certain can be a perennial all-star caliber guy down the line or the deal doesn't make sense. I like Vonleh, but again he went 9th for a reason.

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                              • JWash wrote: View Post
                                if i'm trading DeRozan for a prospect it sure as hell isn't for need. We don't NEED a PG but I'd trade him for Mudiay or Russell in 2 seconds because those guys are actually very likely to be perennial all-star guys. I want a prospect that I'm pretty certain can be a perennial all-star caliber guy down the line or the deal doesn't make sense. I like Vonleh, but again he went 9th for a reason.
                                9th in a very strong draft, while being ranked a top 3 PF (at worst) despite being a full year younger than Julius Randle.

                                Vonleh in this draft, is Top 5.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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