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  • JWash wrote: View Post
    Can I just share this with OSK and mcHAPPY (and the rest of RR of course) who have seriously entertained the idea of trading DD for a mid-late 1st? Just let me know if this is what you want to read a few months from now lol:



    Please tell me how we would not be the laughingstock of the NBA after such a brainless move?

    If a manager were to come out and say such a thing, they would indeed be a laughingstock. But how does that move look when that summer the Raptors have three picks (potentially to trade up), and room to sign both JV and, say, Nic Batum (while letting Ross walk) and leaving themselves max cap room in 2017 and possibly being better than they would have been with DeMar in the meantime.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      If a manager were to come out and say such a thing, they would indeed be a laughingstock. But how does that move look when that summer the Raptors have three picks (potentially to trade up), and room to sign both JV and, say, Nic Batum (while letting Ross walk) and leaving themselves max cap room in 2017 and possibly being better than they would have been with DeMar in the meantime.
      Don't you think we'd be able to get a mid-late 1st back for DeRozan in a sign and trade?

      Most people here are saying the kind of teams that would max him are poorly managed ones. For DD to get max money, a sign and trade would be in his favor and teams like that would likely give up a 1st anyway.

      So why make that kind of trade now when it would still be available in the offseason regardless? There's no utility that you're getting out of it, all I'm seeing is a bunch of people who just want DD out of here.

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      • JWash wrote: View Post
        Dude I don't think we're very far off on the assessment of DeMar defensively here... think it's just syntax lol. I agree with most of what you just wrote. I never speak of DD's defense as a strength, I just don't view it as a weakness because he's adequate on that end, that's all.
        That's the other thing - he's adequate in the defensive role he has been in, which is largely defending the lesser wing threat. Which is fine, considering he carries a big offensive load. But we don't know whether he would be fine defending the better wings night in and night out if he were ever relegated to a secondary offensive player.

        Well, you did say he was average to above average, which sounds like speaking of it as a strength to me. "Average at best" is to me a more accurate and supportable description of his defensive skill set.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • JWash wrote: View Post
          Don't you think we'd be able to get a mid-late 1st back for DeRozan in a sign and trade?

          Most people here are saying the kind of teams that would max him are poorly managed ones. For DD to get max money, a sign and trade would be in his favor and teams like that would likely give up a 1st anyway.

          So why make that kind of trade now when it would still be available in the offseason regardless? There's no utility that you're getting out of it, all I'm seeing is a bunch of people who just want DD out of here.

          I am nearly 100% certain we would not get a 1st round pick for DeRozan in a sign and trade. What team, exactly, is going to opt for a sign and trade next summer when everyone has cap space?

          There is no benefit to DeMar in doing a sign and trade. None whatsoever.

          That trade will not be available in the off-season.

          That said, I think if you make that deal now, you get a slightly better return (say a prospect and a pick). At the deadline a pick is probably his value.
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • DanH stop wasting time here and go,work on your 2015-16 dynasty team.

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            • raptors999 wrote: View Post
              On ball he is but off-ball he doesn't really get a lot of steals or blocks. The wide open threes are a system issue. Demar has every tool to be a good defender but he has never been in a good defensive system and Casey has elected to reduce defensive burdens to let him take more terrible shots.
              You think Casey's defensive system is bad? Jay Triano's defensive system was much worse.

              I will admit it is almost impossible to hide Bargs and Calderon. Demar prolly said *&@# it! Why bother? Lol.




              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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              • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                DanH stop wasting time here and go,work on your 2015-16 dynasty team.
                Not a terrible idea.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • DanH wrote: View Post
                  I am nearly 100% certain we would not get a 1st round pick for DeRozan in a sign and trade. What team, exactly, is going to opt for a sign and trade next summer when everyone has cap space?

                  There is no benefit to DeMar in doing a sign and trade. None whatsoever.

                  That trade will not be available in the off-season.

                  That said, I think if you make that deal now, you get a slightly better return (say a prospect and a pick). At the deadline a pick is probably his value.
                  Miami had cap space for Bosh and they sign and traded us a lottery pick back (ours)...

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                  • JWash wrote: View Post
                    Miami had cap space for Bosh and they sign and traded us a lottery pick back (ours)...
                    Yes. Your point? Should we be using Tracy McGrady as an example of the dangers of rookie scale guys? Different CBA, different rules.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • N
                      DanH wrote: View Post
                      I am nearly 100% certain we would not get a 1st round pick for DeRozan in a sign and trade. What team, exactly, is going to opt for a sign and trade next summer when everyone has cap space?

                      There is no benefit to DeMar in doing a sign and trade. None whatsoever.

                      That trade will not be available in the off-season.

                      That said, I think if you make that deal now, you get a slightly better return (say a prospect and a pick). At the deadline a pick is probably his value.
                      In agreement. IF DD were to be traded NOW would be the time. That said I just don't see MU trading DD. We all want to avoid a repeat of the Chris Bosh fiasco.

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post
                        Well, DeMar is certainly close to that range - technically one can really only be above or below average (likelihood of being exactly average is obviously very low). But if we were to group players into buckets, DeMar would probably be on the low end of the "average" bin, maybe on the high end of "below average". In fact I would say he is above average as a team defender, though below average individually, enough so that he is a net negative though not by much.

                        My reaction to your assessment of "average to above average" is that although DeMar has been approaching average defensive value over his career, he's never been above average by any measure. So I certainly don't consider him above average at all. That's my only disagreement with that assessment. To say he is in the "average" range doesn't particularly bother me - I am simply trying to point out that his defence should never be used as a strength of his when judging his contributions. He's improved a lot from his early days of terrible, terrible defence to the point where he is now. I think those improvements get viewed by some as performing as a positive contributor defensively, and I just disagree with that notion.
                        Wow. To say "technically one can only be above or below average" does violence to the ordinary sense of the English word "average". You're superimposing a mathematical sense "median, mean" over "ordinary, typical or usual".

                        Narrowing the meaning of the word in this way puts JWalsh on to a knife-edge, renders your discussion mostly semantic and re-casts his constructive, good-faith remarks "technically" invalid.
                        Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Thu Aug 6, 2015, 01:54 AM.

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                        • Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
                          Wow. To say "technically one can only be above or below average" does violence to the ordinary sense of the English word "average". You're superimposing a mathematical sense "median, mean" over "ordinary, typical or usual".

                          Narrowing the meaning of the word in this way puts JWalsh on to a knife-edge, renders your discussion mostly semantic and re-casts his constructive, good-faith remarks "technically" invalid.
                          Yup and he just accused me of doing this exact kind of thing earlier. It's becoming very difficult to have a proper debate on these boards because of things like this. Lol at "technically you can't be average, only above or below" I feel like I'm already back at university in one of my math lectures.

                          There are three main definitions for the noun "average" a mathematical one, an everyday one and a financial one. Obviously we're not using a mathematical or financial "average" here because it doesn't make any sense in an NBA context, because there is no way to 100% mathematically evaluate a player defensively.

                          an amount, standard, level, or rate regarded as usual or ordinary.
                          To call DeRozan's defense usual, standard or ordinary would be accurate no?

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                          • Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
                            Wow. To say "technically one can only be above or below average" does violence to the ordinary sense of the English word "average". You're superimposing a mathematical sense "median, mean" over "ordinary, typical or usual".

                            Narrowing the meaning of the word in this way puts JWalsh on to a knife-edge, renders your discussion mostly semantic and re-casts his constructive, good-faith remarks "technically" invalid.
                            Wow, you make a good point! I guess in response to that I would say a reasonable person would only have brought up that reasoning due to its applicability to a numerical value assigned to defence, and would follow up with a comment about how placing players into "buckets" or "bins" or some other such nonsense would be one way to evaluate players, and would then assign DeRozan to one of those bins, or perhaps make a comment about which two bins a player might border. Gosh, I wish I had thought to do something like that instead of ONLY making that comment about "average" being a single point, thus causing you to rightfully step in and point out how I'm arguing in bad faith. So thanks, I really appreciate that. I hereby apologize for my violent acts.
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                            • JWash wrote: View Post
                              Yup and he just accused me of doing this exact kind of thing earlier. It's becoming very difficult to have a proper debate on these boards because of things like this. Lol at "technically you can't be average, only above or below" I feel like I'm already back at university in one of my math lectures.

                              There are three main definitions for the noun "average" a mathematical one, an everyday one and a financial one. Obviously we're not using a mathematical or financial "average" here because it doesn't make any sense in an NBA context, because there is no way to 100% mathematically evaluate a player defensively.



                              To call DeRozan's defense usual, standard or ordinary would be accurate no?

                              And when the defence got better when he got back, right? Right? No?

                              Come on. It's like you guys read one line of my post and move on to congratulating yourselves on how you've managed to catch me in a bad argument.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                              • DanH wrote: View Post
                                Wow, you make a good point! I guess in response to that I would say a reasonable person would only have brought up that reasoning due to its applicability to a numerical value assigned to defence, and would follow up with a comment about how placing players into "buckets" or "bins" or some other such nonsense would be one way to evaluate players, and would then assign DeRozan to one of those bins, or perhaps make a comment about which two bins a player might border. Gosh, I wish I had thought to do something like that instead of ONLY making that comment about "average" being a single point, thus causing you to rightfully step in and point out how I'm arguing in bad faith. So thanks, I really appreciate that. I hereby apologize for my violent acts.
                                And with that we can consider this discussion derailed.


                                So I'm just going to totally switch the topic.

                                What shoes do you guys think DeRozan will wear on opening night?

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