Everything Derozan

[Barolt]

In theory, absolutely; but I think the point that JWash was making, and I tend to agree, is that Casey has always shown to be reliant on a anti-pass offense, and I doubt whether he would adapt his offense to allow said player to do as you say and move our play to a pace and space offense.

Fair enough, and I've believed for a long time that replacing casey is a necessary step for us to become a championship contender.

[Joey]

Fair enough, and I've believed for a long time that replacing casey is a necessary step for us to become a championship contender.

#FireCasey is generally the Great Unifier. Haha

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

Before the Gay trade Derozan wasnt helping much either

That's because of Rudy though... lol

Remember addition by subtraction?

The guys we got back in that trade were looked at as afterthoughts. Everyone thought we were tanking remember?

Lowry and Demar became one of the better guard tandems in the league....


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[Barolt]

#FireCasey is generally the Great Unifier. Haha

I mean, as far as offensive systems go, Casey admitted himself at the end of the year last year that he actually didn't have an offensive system.

Honestly, I know I tend to be a DeMar 'hater', but I really liked the way he played the first quarter last night. Constantly attacking, and being decisive. He didn't hold the ball after catching it, made a move right away.

I felt like after the first quarter not only did he settle for some of those bad midrange jump shots that he isn't good at, but he also stopped being decisive. He got back a little bit to catch, hold, then make a decision which resulted in the other 9 players on the court standing and watching him. If we're keeping DeMar, it's not so much skills that I want him to improve as much as it's that quick decision making so the offense can stay in flow.

[JWash]

In theory, absolutely; but I think the point that JWash was making, and I tend to agree, is that Casey has always shown to be reliant on a anti-pass offense, and I doubt whether he would adapt his offense to allow said player to do as you say and move our play to a pace and space offense.

DeRozan catching the ball on the move, going to the rim after a great pass sequence is as dangerous as (if not moreso than) a catch and shoot 3.

[Barolt]

DeRozan catching the ball on the move after a great pass sequence is as dangerous (if not moreso) than a catch and shoot 3.

Come on man, I'm trying to see the positives of keeping DeMar, but can you please admit that he has some negatives too? In a pace and space offense, he doesn't generate space.

[JWash]

Come on man, I'm trying to see the positives of keeping DeMar, but can you please admit that he has some negatives too? In a pace and space offense, he doesn't generate space.

When have I ever said DeRozan doesn't have any negatives? I've posted several times that he can't shoot above the break 3s, and he needs to stop taking so many 16-23 foot shots (which he has made a concerted effort to do this year btw), and needs to chill on the hero-ball mentality in the 4th quarter (especially when we're losing).

However I'm getting tired of the notion that DD somehow can't be part of a team that plays basketball properly. You do realize that a player like DD would have a field day in a pace and space offense if we actually played it right? This is a guy who thrives in transition and can expertly attack holes and lanes in the defense. Playing pace and space... which involves playing faster (i.e. more transition opportunities) and spreading the floor (creating lanes for slashers and post players) would only make it easier for him to score more efficiently.

The NBA isn't only for 3PT shooters, post players and superstars.

[Barolt]

The NBA isn't only for 3PT shooters, post players and superstars.

Look at the best teams, and the trends in the league, it certainly seems to be headed this way.

[special1]

Come on man, I'm trying to see the positives of keeping DeMar, but can you please admit that he has some negatives too? In a pace and space offense, he doesn't generate space.

Talk about speaking in absolutes....

Just because you say he doesn't generate space doesn't make it true. Teams game plan for him and don't leave him wide open... in fact he often gets double teamed. Don't you notice that he's in the corners quite often? Do you need him to be out of bounds?

There are different types of offences and I'm not convinced that just because you have a 3 point shooter, the team will be more effective. In the playoffs they usually take away the 3s anyways. Then those players get exposed because they can't create off the dribble.

But Demar does generate open looks based on his improved handles and passing.

Also, every player has negatives. For some reason people like to point out Demar's like he's the reason we're not championship contenders.




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[Barolt]

Talk about speaking in absolutes....

Just because you say he doesn't generate space doesn't make it true. Teams game plan for him and don't leave him wide open... in fact he often gets double teamed. Don't you notice that he's in the corners quite often? Do you need him to be out of bounds?

Teams do leave him wide open at the 3 point line, corners excepted. There were posts on here in the last week complaining that he doesn't take the wide open 3s he's given. Also, he gets single covered by good(ie. playoff) teams.

Also, to your point about 3s 'getting taken away in the playoffs', that's simply not true. Golden State proved that wrong very, very clearly last year. Also, Miami's championship teams, the Spurs championship teams, hell, the Lakers teams around Shaq and Kobe filled their rosters with 3 point shooters. The 3 works in the playoffs. Greg Popovich said a few days ago that he hates it, but needs it.

[raptors999]

Teams do leave him wide open at the 3 point line, corners excepted. There were posts on here in the last week complaining that he doesn't take the wide open 3s he's given. Also, he gets single covered by good(ie. playoff) teams.

Also, to your point about 3s 'getting taken away in the playoffs', that's simply not true. Golden State proved that wrong very, very clearly last year. Also, Miami's championship teams, the Spurs championship teams, hell, the Lakers teams around Shaq and Kobe filled their rosters with 3 point shooters. The 3 works in the playoffs. Greg Popovich said a few days ago that he hates it, but needs it.

Without 3s game stay close regardless of how well one team shoots. Terrible teams like the Knicks, Lakers beat good teams with uncommonly good three point chucking

[DanH]

I think DD and Lowry both are great generators of that "gravitational pull" effect. They both get a lot of attention from the defence because of you leave either open they can make you pay (Lowry in the obvious way, DD with a head of steam coming into the paint). Unfortunately, with both, though more so with DeMar, they don't take advantage of that often enough or quickly enough to find open teammates. DeMar has improved, but with the amount of attention he gets, his moderate amount of assists are not particularly impressive. Both guys could use work on hitting the rolling big man, as they are very often open, even if the roller ends up stopping in the post and initiating offence from there. Right now those options are limited, obviously.

But I don't think it is fair to say DD can't exist in the NBA because of spacing. He does fine when paired with the right players, and when he has the right mentality (which he has shown more of lately, thank goodness) - get into the paint at all costs. If every jumper taken is seen as a failure, and he limits jumpers to possessions where there is very little time on the clock and various attempts to go inside have failed, then his percentages would be fine, and he wouldn't bail out the defence as often. And if his drives maintain their recent relentlessness, then his spacing is just as effective as a three point shooter. It is when he settles for jumpers that defences know that all they have to do is leave him open then block the easiest lane, getting a low percentage looks as a reward. Just like re-posting a big man, he should attempt a drive, kick out, reset, come off another screen and dive right back into the paint again. If a defence manages to stop that two or three times, and not leave an open big man down low or open three point attempt (this is where improved awareness from DD pays dividends by the way), then kudos to them and I can live with a DeMar jumper on those occasions.

Unfortunately, all of that relies on him being the player we've seen the last few games (even a slightly better version of it) and not regressing to his career means of settling for jumpers. Career average DeRozan is not a floor spacer, but I would argue best-case-DeRozan is (and my best case for DD does not even include a reliable three point shot).

[Barolt]

Career average DeRozan is not a floor spacer, but I would argue best-case-DeRozan is (and my best case for DD does not even include a reliable three point shot).

I can 100% get behind this statement. best-case-DeMar would be someone I'd be happy to have on any team I would cheer for. I guess I'm just in favor of hedging our bets and using him as a trade asset while he's still young enough to get returns. Because there's also worst-case-DeMar, and we've seen that from time to time, when he goes into full Kobe mode.

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

Teams do leave him wide open at the 3 point line, corners excepted. There were posts on here in the last week complaining that he doesn't take the wide open 3s he's given. Also, he gets single covered by good(ie. playoff) teams.

Also, to your point about 3s 'getting taken away in the playoffs', that's simply not true. Golden State proved that wrong very, very clearly last year. Also, Miami's championship teams, the Spurs championship teams, hell, the Lakers teams around Shaq and Kobe filled their rosters with 3 point shooters. The 3 works in the playoffs. Greg Popovich said a few days ago that he hates it, but needs it.

Kyle Korver was one of the best 3 point shooters in the NBA last year. Look what happened to him in the playoffs.

2014-15 regular season .492

2014-15 playoffs .355 (14 games)

Teams try to force you to take the long 2s (you know the most inefficient shot in basketball). Especially if you're an elite 3 point shooter.




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[Barolt]

Kyle Korver was one of the best 3 point shooters in the NBA last year. Look what happened to him in the playoffs.

2014-15 regular season .492

2014-15 playoffs .355 (14 games)

Teams try to force you to take the long 2s (you know the most inefficient shot in basketball). Especially if you're an elite 3 point shooter.




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You're kinda right. Three point percentages go down in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean they aren't important in the playoffs. Ray Allen late in his career made a lot of money shooting 3 pointers for playoff teams who understood how important it was to have guys who can come in just to do that. Games get closer, defences get tighter in the playoffs. The 3 point shot is a great way to open up space when that happens.