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  • DanH
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post
    You're forgetting that FVV surprised a lot of people last year? He wasn't on anybody's scouting report. After being a finalist for 6MOTY, he's getting a lot more attention. You can see it this clearly at the rim, where he is rarely even getting a chance to finish and every shot is a circus shot. Part of his effectiveness last year was to mix a few of those in to keep defenses off-balance, which wouldn't be the same level of threat as soley an undersized floor spacer. He's being guarded tighter and teams are collapsing on him quicker to close both passing and driving lines. What we're seeing is not just lineups... Freddy's being sped up this year and that's one reason he's looking flappable this year, when 'steady' is supposed to be his calling card.
    I'm not forgetting anything. He was plenty effective even late in the year when scouting reports were coming in because he was still in the right role. He's nowhere close to the right role right now and that's what's killing his effectiveness.

    Yes, the scouting report being out on him is making it harder for him to be effective when driving into the paint. All the more reason to keep him in his comfort zone and not have him drive into the paint endlessly all game long trying to create offence himself.

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  • The Claw Reborn
    replied
    KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Why do we need a return on anything? These players are all talented just need to settle in. 20-4 teams dont trade their young talented players
    Then a clear role definition has to come from Nurse. Including a more sound rotation and exploiting mismatches. All on the coach.

    Status quo by the sound of it

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  • KeonClark
    replied
    The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
    Im saying this because neither Miles nor Powell current value can give us a return that will move the needle.
    Why do we need a return on anything? These players are all talented just need to settle in. 20-4 teams dont trade their young talented players

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  • The Claw Reborn
    replied
    The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
    Something has to give. He played well as a catch and shoot guy with Kawhi. So now being a primary ball handler with JV as the Center may no longer be a good idea. Nurse then will have to clearly define his role and what is best for the team.

    By reading recent responses, It seems the concensus is that JV is not the problem but more of FVV’s role and limitations. That said, is Fred a valuable long term part of the core or is he a valuable commodity to be traded? Or is JV still a bait before the deadline? Or both not a liability for the stretch run?
    Im saying this because neither Miles nor Powell current value can give us a return that will move the needle.

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  • The Claw Reborn
    replied
    KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Or, as danh has been saying, use the pg we already have, the worse shooter but more creative and handler and pick and roll guy in delon, and play fred at the 2 as catch and shoot

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  • golden
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    Exactly like we did last year? Yes, we should play him like we did last year, as primarily an off ball player who worked his attacks into secondary offence more than the primary action. In that role he's one of the best bench players in the game, so no thanks to Garrett Temple, thank you very much. Heck, he's so good in that role that he closed games last year and was pretty effective, because DD and Lowry had the ball. Just have to convince Kawhi and Lowry to not give FVV the ball and he could be a valuable closer again (though with Green here it's less obvious he will be needed there as much).
    You're forgetting that FVV surprised a lot of people last year? He wasn't on anybody's scouting report. After being a finalist for 6MOTY, he's getting a lot more attention. You can see it this clearly at the rim, where he is rarely even getting a chance to finish and every shot is a circus shot. Part of his effectiveness last year was to mix a few of those in to keep defenses off-balance, which wouldn't be the same level of threat as soley an undersized floor spacer. He's being guarded tighter and teams are collapsing on him quicker to close both passing and driving lines. What we're seeing is not just lineups... Freddy's being sped up this year and that's one reason he's looking flappable this year, when 'steady' is supposed to be his calling card.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post
    So to get value out of FVV, we need to play him as the most undersized SG in the NBA, in a backup role no less? We should have just signed a veteran backup SG like Courtney Lee, Quincy Pondexter, Garrett Temple, etc... and brought in a reclamation project PG, like Derrick Rose. Replacement-level backup PGs are an available commodity, especially when you consider FVV's physical limitations.
    Exactly like we did last year? Yes, we should play him like we did last year, as primarily an off ball player who worked his attacks into secondary offence more than the primary action. In that role he's one of the best bench players in the game, so no thanks to Garrett Temple, thank you very much. Heck, he's so good in that role that he closed games last year and was pretty effective, because DD and Lowry had the ball. Just have to convince Kawhi and Lowry to not give FVV the ball and he could be a valuable closer again (though with Green here it's less obvious he will be needed there as much).

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  • DanH
    replied
    The Raptors' DRTG is 4 points better with JV on the court than off. Before you say that's the bench effect: Fred has the same on and off court DRTG, Wright is 3 points worse on the court than off, and OG (JV's frontcourt partner with the bench) is SIX points worse on than off. Miles tops them all, with a team worst 8 point swing in DRTG on versus off. And JV has a 4 point swing in the opposite direction of all those guys.

    Meanwhile, Lowry and Leonard as a pair have a 106 DRTG with Serge and a 100 DRTG with JV. Lowry's DRTG is 4 points better with JV than without him. Leonard's is 3 points better.

    There are absolutely matchup effects there. But we should be beyond the point where we treat JV's defence as a significant weak point in either unit. It's his personal weak point - but within the team structure, he's really not hurting them very often at all.

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  • golden
    replied
    KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Well that's another reason why we should switch their roles. Theyve both been pretty shit. Wright may force it less if hes got the ball more, rather than playing as the shooting guard who doesnt shoot
    So to get value out of FVV, we need to play him as the most undersized SG in the NBA, in a backup role no less? We should have just signed a veteran backup SG like Courtney Lee, Quincy Pondexter, Garrett Temple, etc... and brought in a reclamation project PG, like Derrick Rose. Replacement-level backup PGs are an available commodity, especially when you consider FVV's physical limitations.

    Leave a comment:


  • KeonClark
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post
    Well, Wright hasn't been all that great.

    I know it's antiquated but I'd like to see JV get some post-ups with that second group. It can't be any worse than watching FVV dribble around in circles or Wright practically beg for someone to get the ball and then driving into traffic and turning it over or throwing up wild shots.
    Well that's another reason why we should switch their roles. Theyve both been pretty shit. Wright may force it less if hes got the ball more, rather than playing as the shooting guard who doesnt shoot

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  • slaw
    replied
    KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Or, as danh has been saying, use the pg we already have, the worse shooter but more creative and handler and pick and roll guy in delon, and play fred at the 2 as catch and shoot
    Well, Wright hasn't been all that great.

    I know it's antiquated but I'd like to see JV get some post-ups with that second group. It can't be any worse than watching FVV dribble around in circles or Wright practically beg for someone to get the ball and then driving into traffic and turning it over or throwing up wild shots.

    Leave a comment:


  • A.I
    replied

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  • KeonClark
    replied
    The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
    The struggles of JV with the bench group has something to do of his partnership with Fred Van Vleet. They really are not a good match. In contrast with Lowry, Kyle is a more versatile PG thus he is an all star and a legit starting point guard, he knows better the tendencies of JV and can adapt to having a slow like a log Center.

    Van Vleet’s skillset is more suited with a Center that is more agile like a Yak. He can be a good partner to a Plumlee of the Nuggets. I also dont doubt that he would be successful pairing with Tristan.

    That being said, if I am Masai...I would see it like this, who is more valuable to the team? Fred or JV? Who can give him the best return if he pick one as a trading asset?

    JV is a Center who historically performs well in the playoffs when the pace of the game slows down.

    Fred is a frenetic PG who performs well if PACE is of value but may not be sustainable when the game grinds out to a halt after 82.
    Or, as danh has been saying, use the pg we already have, the worse shooter but more creative and handler and pick and roll guy in delon, and play fred at the 2 as catch and shoot

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  • The Claw Reborn
    replied

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  • BadDinosaur
    replied
    We need JV. I mean we're probably good enough to come out of east with or without JV. But if we play in the Finals against GSW, neither Ibaka nor Thompson will be big enough to matchup with Cousins, who by the way will be back in their lineup as soon as next week.
    JV has shown in his past matchups with Cousins that he can play him to neutral at least and often he outplayed him. All I see with Ibaka and Tristan is them fouling out in 15 minutes.

    We'll play GSW in less than 2 weeks again and Boogie will likely play that game, although he won't be 100% that soon. We'll see how that goes.

    Also, as many have already mentioned, JV steps up in the Playoffs and often wins us a game or 2. So no. I wouldn't trade JV.

    Plus, I thought JV is playing really good D this year. Yes, he allows long twos and some floaters, but this exactly what you want to do. Take away threes and layups. The midrange game is the least efficient game and every team tries to pry offences into those midrange shots. So I think, we're doing a great job of doing just that with JV.

    JV's perceived struggles aren't his struggles at all in my mind. It's more the struggles of our bench. Due to injuries, our bench rotations haven't been anywhere close to consistent and the injured players that are back have been wildly inconsistent on individual level as well. JV had what 2-3 sub par games so far? How many sub par games has the entire bench have so far? The bench had maybe 2 or 3 good games all year. So no, JV is nowhere close to being our problem right now.

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