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  • Also a guy like JV should develop good fundamentals first before he adds more to his game. Or else in the future, Valanciunas becomes a very good post player, but is poor in the other aspects of the game and would ignore the other areas. You see guys like Bogut and Gasol, they are very good post players, but are also great in the other areas that contribute to winning.
    You see a guy in Terrence Ross, who Casey gives tough love to. His main role was playing defense and stretching the floor. He is slowly adding some more wrinkles to his game now.
    On the other hand, you see Bargnani given all the opportunity to score, but cares less about the other areas.
    "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

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    • For people saying Val doesn't get enough playing time:

      The fact that he's averaging ~27ish minutes is testament to the fact that we're trying to develop players this year.

      He's so often a nightmare on court. That put back dunk he gave up to Plumlee tonight was just terrible basketball...
      "Bruno?
      Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
      He's terrible."

      -Superjudge, 7/23

      Hope you're wrong.

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      • stooley wrote: View Post
        For people saying Val doesn't get enough playing time:

        The fact that he's averaging ~27ish minutes is testament to the fact that we're trying to develop players this year.

        He's so often a nightmare on court. That put back dunk he gave up to Plumlee tonight was just terrible basketball...
        The one where he left Plumlee to help?

        *His help was late...
        -But if he gets there earlier and the shot still goes over him, he really can't do anything about Plumlee.
        -If he gets there earlier, Deron maybe has the open passing lane because it's hard to help and take away the passing lane at the same time.
        -If he never leaves Plumlee, Deron gets a layup. (pretty sure even though the help wasn't as timely as it could be, it still influenced the awful layup Deron ended up throwing up there)

        Meanwhile, it's a mismatch as Amir is guarding Deron. Not exactly a super-easy play to defend as a team. It was basically a very bad situation as soon as Deron got the step on him, especially since Lowry was the closest thing to help as he was cheating off his man in the middle, but Deron took the outside lane away from the help instead. (Amir played a great game so I don't want to rag on him, but his stance on this play was awful, basically facing straight up to Deron without moving his feet much, and letting Deron dictate where he would go. Basic D is try to force your man where you want him to go) **THere must've been a lack of communication otherwise Amir should be forcing him to the help instead of just trying to play him straight up.
        Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Mar 11th, 2014, 12:56 AM.

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        • I'm kind of afraid that once JV gets even a sliver of a chance to leave he'll book it for another team.
          OG is our king

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          • stooley wrote: View Post
            For people saying Val doesn't get enough playing time:

            The fact that he's averaging ~27ish minutes is testament to the fact that we're trying to develop players this year.

            .
            Since the end of that 14-10 stretch, Jonas is averaging rookie season minutes.

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            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
              The one where he left Plumlee to help?

              *His help was late...
              -But if he gets there earlier and the shot still goes over him, he really can't do anything about Plumlee.
              -If he gets there earlier, Deron maybe has the open passing lane because it's hard to help and take away the passing lane at the same time.
              -If he never leaves Plumlee, Deron gets a layup. (pretty sure even though the help wasn't as timely as it could be, it still influenced the awful layup Deron ended up throwing up there)

              Meanwhile, it's a mismatch as Amir is guarding Deron. Not exactly a super-easy play to defend as a team. It was basically a very bad situation as soon as Deron got the step on him, especially since Lowry was the closest thing to help as he was cheating off his man in the middle, but Deron took the outside lane away from the help instead. (Amir played a great game so I don't want to rag on him, but his stance on this play was awful, basically facing straight up to Deron without moving his feet much, and letting Deron dictate where he would go. Basic D is try to force your man where you want him to go) **THere must've been a lack of communication otherwise Amir should be forcing him to the help instead of just trying to play him straight up.
              I agree it was a bad situation, but JV's help offered literally nothing. He jumped up and didn't even really bother going for the ball, because he knew there was no chance. Just gift wrapped the offensive board to Plumlee.

              Now, of course, these are growing pains and are to be expected, but when he's on the court, I feel like our defense is significantly worse and he really doesn't offer much on offense either...

              The 5 is by far our weakest position.

              I'm just hoping he develops quickly, because if we can keep this team together and not have a gaping hole at center, we're looking good.
              "Bruno?
              Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
              He's terrible."

              -Superjudge, 7/23

              Hope you're wrong.

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              • stooley wrote: View Post
                I agree it was a bad situation, but JV's help offered literally nothing. He jumped up and didn't even really bother going for the ball, because he knew there was no chance. Just gift wrapped the offensive board to Plumlee.

                Now, of course, these are growing pains and are to be expected, but when he's on the court, I feel like our defense is significantly worse and he really doesn't offer much on offense either...

                The 5 is by far our weakest position.

                I'm just hoping he develops quickly, because if we can keep this team together and not have a gaping hole at center, we're looking good.
                It's the toughest spot to learn.

                Our D is definitely worse, but I don't know how significantly. He's still probably the best (though not consistently) low-post defender we have all around if we need to guard a big opposing C. Amir is still too skinny. Hansbrough can bang but gives up too much size on Cs. Hayes is solid but is far too short and generally unathletic (which make his impact quite inconsistent). Jonas' post D is not that bad, and should get better as he learns to better push his man out, which is really his biggest weakness there.

                And while his help D needs a lot of work, the times he does things right, there's no denying the value of his height and even his size. It's hard to finish over him or through him when he's vertical.

                JV gets exposed big time when teams force rotations on p'n'rs or drive and kick action. These are often the hardest things to learn for any C.

                They are not things even the best defensive Cs in the league get that fast. Drummond is just as much a nightmare in terms of defensive IQ (arguably worse). Hibbert himself has talked about how it took him years (too lazy to look for the story) to nail down his help D (*how it was very frustrating and how he thought he'd never get it). Chandler was a foul-prone overaggressive mess who struggled pretty much until he got to the Hornets. Howard still struggles with the p'n'r. Maybe JV is never elite in this area, but it's far too early to be worried. Rivers' big mission in going to LAC was turning Jordan in a top-flight defensive C, which he knew would be key to their ability to contend, as Jordan frequently made mental mistakes and has improved quite a bit under Rivers. It just takes time, patience, and the right teaching (not sure Casey is bad for that on D, but question his overall impact on development).

                And has been talked about so much around here, at least part of his offensive struggles are clearly related to usg (not quantity, but quality). So I won't touch those again.

                Finally, on this team, don't know how much I care. When JV (and Ross) starts to peak, Lowry will probably be at least 29 or 30. DeMar could be looking for a new contract. We definitely have questions at PF, which we have a decent platoon at, but no long-term security. I'm not convinced this team can truly be built into a contender. It seems like it's still likely a very good piece away even as is. And it seems like even together in the best case, without a significant addition, a real championship window may not open til JV/Ross' 4th season if they both develop very well, when questions about keeping that team together or potential decline of other pieces may arise.
                Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Mar 11th, 2014, 02:06 AM.

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                • S to the tiff

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                  • Stiff
                    I been singing and rapping I make a killin' in both If i had to choose a Jackson man I'm feelin' like Bo ~ king drizzy

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                    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      Our D is definitely worse, but I don't know how significantly. He's still probably the best (though not consistently) low-post defender we have all around if we need to guard a big opposing C. Hansbrough can bang but gives up too much size on Cs.

                      And while his help D needs a lot of work, the times he does things right, there's no denying the value of his height and even his size. It's hard to finish over him or through him when he's vertical.

                      JV gets exposed big time when teams force rotations on p'n'rs or drive and kick action. These are often the hardest things to learn for any C.
                      Great post, thanks for taking the time to walk through all that.

                      I completely agree that he's clearly still developing, and I'm not really commenting on his long term potential (although you've reassured me there).

                      As of right now, Jonas's on-off splits are -6.9. We're 7 points worse per 100 possessions when he's on the floor, than when he's off. This agrees with my eye test.

                      I personally almost always prefer to see the Amir/2Pat duo on the floor, or with 2Pat out, to see Hansbrough bashing heads down low.

                      Every time we play an athletic, strong center, they seem to tear us up. Guys like Gortat, Pekovic, Blatche, Jordan seem to just do what they want to us.

                      Every time they show the points in the paint spread mid-game, we seem to be getting killed in that too.

                      Anyways, I know big men take a long time to develop, and I'm sure Jonas will come around. But right now, any playing time he gets isn't really helping the team win games, but is contributing to his development instead.

                      EDIT:

                      For comparison's sake, the rest of our starters:

                      Amir Johnson: net +2.9
                      Terrence Ross: net -0.2
                      Demar Derozan: net -0.8
                      Kyle Lowry: net +4.3

                      Patrick Patterson: net +8.3
                      Tyler Hansbrough: net +2.5
                      John Salmons: net +4.3 (his basketball-reference page is sooo long lol)
                      Last edited by stooley; Tue Mar 11th, 2014, 10:55 AM.
                      "Bruno?
                      Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                      He's terrible."

                      -Superjudge, 7/23

                      Hope you're wrong.

                      Comment


                      • Does anybody else think that JV plays a bit better near the 2nd half of games? I remember in that one game against Cleveland he went off in the 3rd quarter. In Minnesota in the 4th he grabbed some huge O boards to get us extra possessions. And last night he did a better job in the 3rd after having a miserable 2nd. I think he's more than capable of learning from his mistakes quickly when given the chance


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        OG is our king

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                        • stooley wrote: View Post
                          Every time we play an athletic, strong center, they seem to tear us up. Guys like Gortat, Pekovic, Blatche, Jordan seem to just do what they want to us.
                          Part of that is generally on the peronnel we have. If Jonas isn't playing well, no one else is a good matchup.

                          In that Wiz game, Jonas was struggling against Gortat....The thing is, nobody did anything to slow him down. Gortat did just as much, if not more, damage with Jonas out even though Jonas was playing shitty.

                          In the Minny game, Jonas struggled with Pek early, but was a huge difference maker in the 2nd half. Played him much stronger and totally slowed him down.

                          Again, the problem is that our other guys, while smarter/quicker defenders, are just more limited in matchups. Either of the above guys can push or go over our other bigs. The same goes for a guy like Blatche who is too big for Amir/2Pat, and too quick with the ball for Tyler. And a guy like Jordan, who is too athletic/long for all our guys, and who actually has been played a lot by our other guys since Casey has put JV on Blake to try and match up strength, since Amir tends to get destroyed by Griffin.

                          They're all natural PFs, and none of them other than Hansbrough are very strong. Part of the reason the Amir/2Pat duo works so well is that if the other team doesn't have a great post threat (which is not unusual in this day and age of lacking quality low-post bigs), they're far and away the quickest guys defensively, and so the best at being in position. Both have struggled in certain ways if forced to guard bigger matchups in the post.

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                          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            Part of that is generally on the peronnel we have. If Jonas isn't playing well, no one else is a good matchup.

                            In that Wiz game, Jonas was struggling against Gortat....The thing is, nobody did anything to slow him down. Gortat did just as much, if not more, damage with Jonas out even though Jonas was playing shitty.

                            In the Minny game, Jonas struggled with Pek early, but was a huge difference maker in the 2nd half. Played him much stronger and totally slowed him down.

                            Again, the problem is that our other guys, while smarter/quicker defenders, are just more limited in matchups. Either of the above guys can push or go over our other bigs. The same goes for a guy like Blatche who is too big for Amir/2Pat, and too quick with the ball for Tyler. And a guy like Jordan, who is too athletic/long for all our guys, and who actually has been played a lot by our other guys since Casey has put JV on Blake to try and match up strength, since Amir tends to get destroyed by Griffin.

                            They're all natural PFs, and none of them other than Hansbrough are very strong. Part of the reason the Amir/2Pat duo works so well is that if the other team doesn't have a great post threat (which is not unusual in this day and age of lacking quality low-post bigs), they're far and away the quickest guys defensively, and so the best at being in position. Both have struggled in certain ways if forced to guard bigger matchups in the post.
                            Well said. You also touched on one of the reasons fans are so excited by JV as a prospect. He can become a legit post-up guy, and in a league where there aren't many, he can therefore create the match-up problem for other teams. Growing pains to get there are to be expected.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • Craig wrote: View Post
                              S to the tiff

                              Thank u, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it
                              I been singing and rapping I make a killin' in both If i had to choose a Jackson man I'm feelin' like Bo ~ king drizzy

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                              • UnderdogRaptors wrote: View Post
                                Thank u, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it
                                yo underdograptors did you get banned from realgm again? Hhahahaha
                                "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

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