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  • Is JV going to play any different in the 4th quarter than he does in the first 3?

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    • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
      Is JV going to play any different in the 4th quarter than he does in the first 3?
      I'm confused by this.

      Is this implying there is an issue with how he plays in the first 3?

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      • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
        I'm confused by this.

        Is this implying there is an issue with how he plays in the first 3?
        When he's rebounding like a one handed pussy, yes.

        When he's being eaten up by a quality veteran front court, yes

        When he's lost in space against a small ball 5 man 3 pt shooting unit, yes.

        When he's playing well (like everybody, not all the time), and the match-up works, he gets minutes
        ********************

        I don't get it. I hear a lot of talk about his CONFIDENCE needs nurturing, yet when evidence shows that he's struggling defensively against an opponent already, in the first 3 qtrs, people want him thrown to the wolves and likely beat the shit out of his confidence when the focus and intensity ramps up in the 4th. If he can't defend well in the first 3, what has he not learned that he suddenly will in the 4th when they come at him harder? Learn to do it right in the first 3 qtrs, then the coach might trust in him in the 4th?

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        • chico wrote: View Post
          When he's rebounding like a one handed pussy, yes.

          When he's being eaten up by a quality veteran front court, yes

          When he's lost in space against a small ball 5 man 3 pt shooting unit, yes.

          When he's playing well (like everybody, not all the time), and the match-up works, he gets minutes
          ********************

          I don't get it. I hear a lot of talk about his CONFIDENCE needs nurturing, yet when evidence shows that he's struggling defensively against an opponent already, in the first 3 qtrs, people want him thrown to the wolves and likely beat the shit out of his confidence when the focus and intensity ramps up in the 4th. If he can't defend well in the first 3, what has he not learned that he suddenly will in the 4th when they come at him harder? Learn to do it right in the first 3 qtrs, then the coach might trust in him in the 4th?
          What's actually going on here is some fans would like to see JV get 4th quarter minutes because they think he's good, and that he's going to be a lot better with some development. You've tried to pass off "the coach knows better than you" and "they're 13-2" as your arguments, but finally you've made it clear you just think JV sucks. Why didn't you say so in the first place.

          The team is playing great, the fourth quarters have been great, and JV has the potential to make them even better. It's that simple.

          He's also much more important to the team's long-term prospects than Chuck Hayes, TH, or James Johnson.
          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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          • planetmars wrote: View Post
            If Casey can win without JV in the 4th, and Masai believes in Casey then we should probably consider trading JV now while his stock is probably at his highest (rookie contract that has not been extended yet). If you have no faith in your young big man now while the season is early and the games basically don't matter as much then when is that faith going to actually come? I doubt it will occur later in the season or in the playoffs when games suddenly start mattering a lot.

            JV's in his 3rd season so it's not like he's still a baby.

            Will be interesting to see how it gets played out.
            Or maybe the coaching and management of the team have a longer term view of his development? He starts every game, and the front court are making very obvious efforts to get him heavily involved offensively. But they can't hold his hand defensively, and when the team needs to step it up defensively later in the game, they go with the best chance of doing that, against the opponent they're facing. What prey tell is wrong with that?

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            • S.R. wrote: View Post
              What's actually going on here is some fans would like to see JV get 4th quarter minutes because they think he's good, and that he's going to be a lot better with some development. You've tried to pass off "the coach knows better than you" and "they're 13-2" as your arguments, but finally you've made it clear you just think JV sucks. Why didn't you say so in the first place.

              The team is playing great, the fourth quarters have been great, and JV has the potential to make them even better. It's that simple.

              He's also much more important to the team's long-term prospects than Chuck Hayes, TH, or James Johnson.
              Didn't say that at all. In fact i think he's going to be a beast on this team for a long time. I also think the coaching staff is bringing him along just fine, and have yet to see anything that comes close to qualified reasoning to say otherwise.

              Comment


              • S.R. wrote: View Post
                What's actually going on here is some fans would like to see JV get 4th quarter minutes because they think he's good, and that he's going to be a lot better with some development. You've tried to pass off "the coach knows better than you" and "they're 13-2" as your arguments, but finally you've made it clear you just think JV sucks. Why didn't you say so in the first place.

                The team is playing great, the fourth quarters have been great, and JV has the potential to make them even better. It's that simple.

                He's also much more important to the team's long-term prospects than Chuck Hayes, TH, or James Johnson.
                Having said that, there's no doubt that in certain games and against specific matchups/lineups, JV will sit.

                My biggest beef is that I often can't fathom any reason for JV sitting aside from the fact that he's relatively young/inexperienced. I get that.

                However, there's been games when the opposition has made baskets and/or gotten rebounds, that I honestly felt JV would have helped prevent. Amir, Patterson, Hayes and JJ are good players, but just as there are bad matchups for JV, there are also bad matchups for them, when JV's size/strengths would have been at least as big an advantage as his age/inexperience would have been a disadvantage. That's what I don't get.

                Comment


                • I think the argument needs to start with (a) understanding why Casey is running JV's minutes the way he is, and then (b) examining the merits and problems with that approach.

                  So, there are two reasons why a think we aren't seeing JV in clutch situations: the first is that Casey has stressed role definition, and we've seen thus far how guys who master roles are then given additional roles to master. Lou needed to master being a second-unit scorer before he was given additional responsibilities, but now he's getting additional responsibilities. So it is with most players on the roster. Right now, JV is still has a lot of improvement in his primary role, with is centered on playing good all-round defense, rebounding, and contributing offensively. He's not being put in a lot of different situations because he's still got a lot of room to improve at that primary role. It's telling that Jonas is +31 in the 137 minutes he's had with the starting lineup, and a cumulative -9 with all other lineups (101 minutes total--a lot of those coming when Patterson was filling in for Johnson). Casey doesn't feel yet that JV is one of those chess-pieces that he can mix and match with other players. (Compare that to Hayes, who has spent no more than 6 minutes with any 5-man unit, but at least 3 minutes with 8 different units).

                  The second reason we don't see JV in clutch situations is because I'm convinced that Casey cares primarily about putting the best defensive matchup on the floor that he can to close out games, and then counting on his excellent backcourt to make sure that we get high-percentage looks on offense regardless of what that closing lineup is. Our clutch lineup is basically Lowry (96% of clutch minutes), DeRozan (100%), Ross (71%), and then a combination of Hayes, A.Johnson, J.Johnson, Patterson with between roughly 40-50% each. Williams is the only other player on the team to get a statistically significant number of clutch minutes (23%). JV gets just 8% of clutch minutes thus far. It's difficult to tell much from clutch stats, because every guy on this team has ridiculously good clutch numbers right now, and the sample size is still pretty small. But the one thing you can tell is Casey's thinking, which is clearly defense first, and trust your skilled guys to create shots on offense. And JV just isn't reliable on defense yet.

                  With those two factors in mind, I think there are are a lot of merits and problems. On the good side of the ledger: it's resulting in wins; it encourages the tough, defense-first mentality that Casey wants; it allows the Raptors to exploit their advantage of a deep bench with a lot of different skillsets; it sets clear expectations for players. For negatives: we don't know what Jonas' clutch game is like; he might be frustrated with the lack of minutes (although he's not expressed this); he's missing out on valuable learning opportunities; the defense-first approach ignores the possibility that JV would more than make up for his defensive issues with offensive production; he isn't getting a chance to prove himself to teammates as a clutch option.

                  There are also some unknowns: first and foremost, it's impossible to say whether JV would develop faster and better getting experience in more diverse and higher pressure situations, or whether he'll develop faster and better with narrowly defined roles and areas of focus and improvement. I think it's reasonable to assume that Casey and his staff are doing what they think is best for JV's development, but at the same time it's perfectly legitimate to question whether that is in fact the best way.

                  Comment


                  • planetmars wrote: View Post
                    If Casey can win without JV in the 4th, and Masai believes in Casey then we should probably consider trading JV now while his stock is probably at his highest (rookie contract that has not been extended yet). If you have no faith in your young big man now while the season is early and the games basically don't matter as much then when is that faith going to actually come? I doubt it will occur later in the season or in the playoffs when games suddenly start mattering a lot.

                    JV's in his 3rd season so it's not like he's still a baby.

                    Will be interesting to see how it gets played out.
                    Sigh. Come on now....are we not taking this a bit far? Trade JV??? 3rd season? You mean 14 games into the 3rd season with the team 12-2 and imo has yet to find it's ceiling? Whatever happened to the "patience" mantra? It's very interesting that the team has the record it does and some want to actually consider trading our CENTRE who is probably just scratching the surface talent wise and by all indications is someone the org. and players really like (and he them?).

                    It's one thing to be somewhat disappointed that he has not shown the level of improvements expected ...and quite another to trade him...and for who (you didnt say)? He knows the system....how long will the newbie take and a bunch of other considerations. Can we at least wait out this year or did you actually believe before this season began that this team was destined for at least the ECF? What is occurring right now as far as I am concerned is as unexpected as the effect the traded players from SAC had on this team. Cannot mess with it right now...not until there is very very very good reason to....and I just believe this thinking is way too premature and a severe over-reaction to a perceived thinking of the coaching staff decision making. Frankly if Masai felt that JV was being held back...I'd rather he fire Casey than trade JV at this time. Any faults JV has (other than his quicks) are all correctable and are outweighed by his plusses.

                    Rant over...excuse moi.

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                    • octothorp wrote: View Post
                      I think the argument needs to start with (a) understanding why Casey is running JV's minutes the way he is, and then (b) examining the merits and problems with that approach.

                      So, there are two reasons why a think we aren't seeing JV in clutch situations: the first is that Casey has stressed role definition, and we've seen thus far how guys who master roles are then given additional roles to master. Lou needed to master being a second-unit scorer before he was given additional responsibilities, but now he's getting additional responsibilities. So it is with most players on the roster. Right now, JV is still has a lot of improvement in his primary role, with is centered on playing good all-round defense, rebounding, and contributing offensively. He's not being put in a lot of different situations because he's still got a lot of room to improve at that primary role. It's telling that Jonas is +31 in the 137 minutes he's had with the starting lineup, and a cumulative -9 with all other lineups (101 minutes total--a lot of those coming when Patterson was filling in for Johnson). Casey doesn't feel yet that JV is one of those chess-pieces that he can mix and match with other players. (Compare that to Hayes, who has spent no more than 6 minutes with any 5-man unit, but at least 3 minutes with 8 different units).

                      The second reason we don't see JV in clutch situations is because I'm convinced that Casey cares primarily about putting the best defensive matchup on the floor that he can to close out games, and then counting on his excellent backcourt to make sure that we get high-percentage looks on offense regardless of what that closing lineup is. Our clutch lineup is basically Lowry (96% of clutch minutes), DeRozan (100%), Ross (71%), and then a combination of Hayes, A.Johnson, J.Johnson, Patterson with between roughly 40-50% each. Williams is the only other player on the team to get a statistically significant number of clutch minutes (23%). JV gets just 8% of clutch minutes thus far. It's difficult to tell much from clutch stats, because every guy on this team has ridiculously good clutch numbers right now, and the sample size is still pretty small. But the one thing you can tell is Casey's thinking, which is clearly defense first, and trust your skilled guys to create shots on offense. And JV just isn't reliable on defense yet.

                      With those two factors in mind, I think there are are a lot of merits and problems. On the good side of the ledger: it's resulting in wins; it encourages the tough, defense-first mentality that Casey wants; it allows the Raptors to exploit their advantage of a deep bench with a lot of different skillsets; it sets clear expectations for players. For negatives: we don't know what Jonas' clutch game is like; he might be frustrated with the lack of minutes (although he's not expressed this); he's missing out on valuable learning opportunities; the defense-first approach ignores the possibility that JV would more than make up for his defensive issues with offensive production; he isn't getting a chance to prove himself to teammates as a clutch option.

                      There are also some unknowns: first and foremost, it's impossible to say whether JV would develop faster and better getting experience in more diverse and higher pressure situations, or whether he'll develop faster and better with narrowly defined roles and areas of focus and improvement. I think it's reasonable to assume that Casey and his staff are doing what they think is best for JV's development, but at the same time it's perfectly legitimate to question whether that is in fact the best way.

                      I appreciate the rational analysis, but I disagree fundamentally with part of it. I may be in the minority here, but I really don't think JV's defense has been bad, which is why some posters seem to support JV's being benched during crunch time.

                      As I said in my previous post, in certain matchups - against a team going small, for example - I totally support him being benched. In that case, a guy like Amir or JJ (or Patterson if the opposing 'big' is a stretch-4 type) is the right choice for the token 'big'.

                      However, when the opposition's lineup includes a player that would be a typical man-to-man matchup for JV, I think he should be in. The times when JV's defense seems to be the most 'exposed' is when an opposing player penetrates off a dribble-drive and JV does a good job up stepping out to cut him off, leaving his man open for an easy dump-off basket. However, I think those plays speak volumes about the team's porous perimeter defense, as well as the slow rotation to cover JV's man, when JV makes the right play to cut off the drive. I've often seen smaller 'bigs' getting backed down by bigger opposition players for easy baskets and the opposition getting many more 2nd chance opportunities, while JV sits on the bench. In those cases, I fundamentally disagree that JV would be detrimental to the team's overall defense in crunch time.

                      And I'm absolutely not saying just play JV for the sake of playing/developing him. I'm also not suggesting to play him for the entire crunch-time, every game. I'm simply suggesting to expand the opportunities afforded to him, when the matchups are appropriate. With the way he's been playing lately, I daresay he's earned a [slightly] longer leash.
                      Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Nov 27th, 2014, 05:42 PM.

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                      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        I appreciate the rational analysis, but I disagree fundamentally with part of it. I may be in the minority here, but I really don't think JV's defense has been bad, which is why some posters seem to support JV's being benched during crunch time.

                        As I said in my previous post, in certain matchups - against a team going small, for example - I totally support him being benched. In that case, a guy like Amir or JJ (or Patterson if the opposing 'big' is a stretch-4 type) is the right choice for the token 'big'.

                        However, when the opposition's lineup includes a player that would be a typical man-to-man matchup for JV, I think he should be in. The times when JV's defense seems to be the most 'exposed' is when an opposing player penetrates off a dribble-drive and JV does a good job up stepping out to cut him off, leaving his man open for an easy dump-off basket. However, I think those plays speak volumes about the team's porous perimeter defense, as well as the slow rotation to cover JV's man, when JV makes the right play to cut off the drive. I've often seen smaller 'bigs' getting backed down by bigger opposition players for easy baskets and the opposition getting many more 2nd chance opportunities, while JV sits on the bench. In those cases, I fundamentally disagree that JV would be detrimental to the team's overall defense in crunch time.

                        And I'm absolutely not saying just play JV for the sake of playing/developing him. I'm also not suggesting to play him for the entire crunch-time, every game. I'm simply suggesting to expand the opportunities afforded to him, when the matchups are appropriate. With the way he's been playing lately, I daresay he's earned a [slightly] longer leash.
                        If you're in the minority, you're not alone. The rhetoric around JV's D gets really out of hand. He's actually far more solid than he's being given credit for.

                        Comment


                        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                          If you're in the minority, you're not alone. The rhetoric around JV's D gets really out of hand. He's actually far more solid than he's being given credit for.
                          I can't imagine how quickly the discussion would get out of hand if we started talking about which players should be benched if D was truly the priority.

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                          • Eh, the only reason he's been benched in Q4 vs. Suns and Hawks is that they played an all-threes lineup.

                            But man, the JV hate from some people is WAY stronger than the Demar "hate". His defense isn't nearly as bad as some of you want to believe.

                            If he and the coaches can figure out how to make him less exposed against that kind of lineup, then there's no problems, and he'll dominate offensively. It'll get there.

                            No way would I trade him, like someone suggested earlier.

                            Comment


                            • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              I appreciate the rational analysis, but I disagree fundamentally with part of it. I may be in the minority here, but I really don't think JV's defense has been bad, which is why some posters seem to support JV's being benched during crunch time....However, when the opposition's lineup includes a player that would be a typical man-to-man matchup for JV, I think he should be in. The times when JV's defense seems to be the most 'exposed' is when an opposing player penetrates off a dribble-drive and JV does a good job up stepping out to cut him off, leaving his man open for an easy dump-off basket....
                              I've been frustrated with how JV is getting his minutes and have been paying more attention to just this type of scenario. And the truth is that JV is absolutely terrible in P'N'R situations. He DOESN't hedge out hard. He kind of goes half way, leaving lots of room for the smaller guard or wing to shoot AND leaving his own man open enough to receive a pass. This results in plenty of "hockey" assists for the smaller opponent and plenty of alley-oop or layup opportunities for JV's primary responsibility.

                              I think other teams have noticed his tendencies and are keying on them to grab some easy baskets. The last 3-4 games I have seen JV allow 3-4 of these opportunities for opponents to get easy baskets every game.

                              Frequently this isn't happening because JV isn't getting help, it's happening because he doesn't hedge hard enough to make it clear he needs help. If he (or the coaches) can clean this up, I bet he sees more minutes in the 4th.

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                              • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                I can't imagine how quickly the discussion would get out of hand if we started talking about which players should be benched if D was truly the priority.
                                Admit it , you mean Demar

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