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  • Puffer wrote: View Post
    I've been frustrated with how JV is getting his minutes and have been paying more attention to just this type of scenario. And the truth is that JV is absolutely terrible in P'N'R situations. He DOESN't hedge out hard. He kind of goes half way, leaving lots of room for the smaller guard or wing to shoot AND leaving his own man open enough to receive a pass. This results in plenty of "hockey" assists for the smaller opponent and plenty of alley-oop or layup opportunities for JV's primary responsibility.

    I think other teams have noticed his tendencies and are keying on them to grab some easy baskets. The last 3-4 games I have seen JV allow 3-4 of these opportunities for opponents to get easy baskets every game.

    Frequently this isn't happening because JV isn't getting help, it's happening because he doesn't hedge hard enough to make it clear he needs help. If he (or the coaches) can clean this up, I bet he sees more minutes in the 4th.
    Quite often it seems like the rotation to cover his man is late though. It's been anti-Bargnani; I used to get so peeved off when Bargnani would stick to his man like glue, while watching a guy stroll to the basket untouched. JV has been making the move to cut-off the lane, but then his man is wide open. I agree that he can still improve the consistency with which he makes quicker decisions, but in those situations where the perimeter man is beat cleanly off the dribble, JV's screwed either way without the back-side rotation to help him.

    Comment


    • raptors999 wrote: View Post
      Admit it , you mean Demar
      He's the obvious guy. But all the perimeter players at times have been abused. Ross has had games where he's shut-down his man, while other games he's been completely ineffective. GV's defense isn't great. Even Lowry has had some rough games, when it comes to being able to keep his man in front of him.

      I also get that you can't just go with a 5-man 'all defense' lineup either. That's sort of my point, in defense (pardon the pun) of JV, as opposed to attacking any other players. Sometimes I think the rebounding advantage JV would provide, would outweigh any losses defensively.

      Comment


      • KHD wrote: View Post
        Eh, the only reason he's been benched in Q4 vs. Suns and Hawks is that they played an all-threes lineup.

        But man, the JV hate from some people is WAY stronger than the Demar "hate". His defense isn't nearly as bad as some of you want to believe.

        If he and the coaches can figure out how to make him less exposed against that kind of lineup, then there's no problems, and he'll dominate offensively. It'll get there.

        No way would I trade him, like someone suggested earlier.
        You got things backwards. This discussion isn't being initiated by anybody dumping on JV, a la your reference to the numerous DD "discussions" that get heated. Personally I love the kid, and feel he's going to develop into a VERY solid 2 way C, at the very least, but what's initiating this is the narrative that the coaching staff is mishandling him, and his development. No JV "hate" at all, but a patient and realistic view being offered to counter the criticism of how the coaching staff is bringing him along.

        Comment


        • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          I can't imagine how quickly the discussion would get out of hand if we started talking about which players should be benched if D was truly the priority.
          That's why some of us feel there's a clear bias on this team. I'm not gonna name the player but you know who I'm talking about. It's quite comical when some people say Jonas is benched because he doesn't defend in the 4th but there a guy who plays ever 4th who's horrific at defending.
          "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

          Comment


          • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            ... JV has been making the move to cut-off the lane, but then his man is wide open. I agree that he can still improve the consistency with which he makes quicker decisions, but in those situations where the perimeter man is beat cleanly off the dribble, JV's screwed either way without the back-side rotation to help him.
            Don't disagree. My point was that he doesn't fully commit one way or the other. If he fully committed to coover the guard (wing) then his help might move over quickly to cover his man, then when JV recovered quickly the help could drop back to their own man...but I have been watching JV make a move,. then hesitate. He stops in no man's land. If the help moved to cover under those circumstances, their own guy would be wide open and the guard (wing) would be under no pressure so could shoot or pass. That is why I suggested that the coaches may need to get involved. Maybe they are and JV is sitting because he forgets to do what he is told?

            Comment


            • MACK11 wrote: View Post
              Jonas isn't playing bad defense so why is benched? ??
              I agree, I thought JV has been our second best defender behind Amir. Hayes has been good, but is situational and many people point to how he stopped Marc in his tracks....when he really didn't, Marc still was making his shots regardless.


              ***********************************


              The way I look at the JV situation is kind of like Shaq. Now, JV is no where near as potent as Shaq, and will probably never get to those levels, however the situation is similar.

              Shaq could not defend the PnR by hedging and was forced to slide back and cover the drive and let the guard fight over the screen, exactly the same way Casey is using JV. Teams tried to attack him using small ball and exploiting this matchup. However, Shaq had the coaches grace and was still played late, unless in situational final possessions where they needed to hedge and cover the three, but by in large he played the majority of the fourth. Why did they do this? Because when teams went small to counter him, the coach made sure that he was used inside to punish them, and he often did.

              One of Casey's most talked about flaws is his inability to use players proactively and force the opposing team to play to the Raptors, and is instead a reactive coach. This is very evident with his use of JV, where he is reacting to the other teams lineup (which many teams are set up to be effective at small ball).

              Hypothetically, Casey should be using JV at that point and forcing it inside, forcing the other team to play big to guard JV. This effectively limits the opposition's effectiveness on offense while giving us an advantage. (and make his free throws, unlike hack-a-Shaq, which was designed to take him off the fllor))

              Now, this hypothetical situation will never be possible because Casey never plays JV in crunch time so a few things are going to happen

              1) JVs development stagnates
              2) JV becomes less effective than he could be when a situation arises where he would play against an opposing big late
              3) Raptors effectively limit their own ceiling
              4) We will never find out if JV can be effective late if we never play him in those situations. As a few posters have already pointed out, his stats late point to him being effective already.

              Comment


              • Puffer wrote: View Post
                I've been frustrated with how JV is getting his minutes and have been paying more attention to just this type of scenario. And the truth is that JV is absolutely terrible in P'N'R situations. He DOESN't hedge out hard. He kind of goes half way, leaving lots of room for the smaller guard or wing to shoot AND leaving his own man open enough to receive a pass. This results in plenty of "hockey" assists for the smaller opponent and plenty of alley-oop or layup opportunities for JV's primary responsibility.

                I think other teams have noticed his tendencies and are keying on them to grab some easy baskets. The last 3-4 games I have seen JV allow 3-4 of these opportunities for opponents to get easy baskets every game.

                Frequently this isn't happening because JV isn't getting help, it's happening because he doesn't hedge hard enough to make it clear he needs help. If he (or the coaches) can clean this up, I bet he sees more minutes in the 4th.
                P'n'r D is hard. That's not an excuse. It's just the way it is. Howard is considered a defensive monster, and he can easily be exposed by a two-man p'n'r in all the same ways you discuss. Same thing for Gasol, who can easily be exploited in a well-run p'n'r. (I purposely picked these 2 guys because they're both great defenders and also on opposite ends of the athleticism spectrum.) It's very hard for Cs to defend properly, because most of them can't hedge hard and recover in time. (And to help illustrate why hedging hard is not the end all and be all of p'n'r D...think how hard teams hedged on Jose, and how easy it was for him to just dribble one step back or to the side and pass to a wide open big man anyway)

                I'm sure if we watched every NBA game every night, we'd notice that it is fairly frequent no matter how good a defensive C a team has.

                And mostly it's been a problem on the low p'n'r. On the high p'n'r, this team has steadily gotten better the last couple of years at covering the secondary rotations. Jonas or Amir's man is often bumped by a wing, and if the other big is down at the baseline, he often steps into the lane enough to be a defensive presence near the basket.

                On the low p'n'r, it's much harder. The secondary defenders aren't in much of a position to rotate down and help, especially when the roller is near the baseline. This has been a general problem for the team, and our other bigs have also been exposed. It happens (or seems to) with Jonas more because he spends all his time guarding other bigs who are more "true" bigs, and less likely to be used as faceup/stretch guys.
                Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Nov 27th, 2014, 06:16 PM.

                Comment


                • chico wrote: View Post
                  Or maybe the coaching and management of the team have a longer term view of his development? He starts every game, and the front court are making very obvious efforts to get him heavily involved offensively. But they can't hold his hand defensively, and when the team needs to step it up defensively later in the game, they go with the best chance of doing that, against the opponent they're facing. What prey tell is wrong with that?
                  Patterson isn't a defensive guru though and he gets 4th quarter minutes. So why is JV being singled out? If its age, then it goes back to DeMar and his treatment when Casey was first here. How come DD didn't get singled out for his defensive mistakes in his 3rd year (and Casey's first)? There is a double standard but it could simply come down to the fact that the coaching staff has no faith in the guy.

                  And my point is that if there is a lack of faith when does that improve? What does JV need to do? I mean he isn't even getting playing time in the 4th against bad teams like Philly. Wouldn't it be a good time to move him while the iron is hot? He's on a rookie deal and could be a top 10 center in the league. I would assume there would be a lot of GM's lining up to make a really good offer.

                  Comment


                  • planetmars wrote: View Post
                    Patterson isn't a defensive guru though and he gets 4th quarter minutes. So why is JV being singled out? If its age, then it goes back to DeMar and his treatment when Casey was first here. How come DD didn't get singled out for his defensive mistakes in his 3rd year (and Casey's first)? There is a double standard but it could simply come down to the fact that the coaching staff has no faith in the guy.

                    And my point is that if there is a lack of faith when does that improve? What does JV need to do? I mean he isn't even getting playing time in the 4th against bad teams like Philly. Wouldn't it be a good time to move him while the iron is hot? He's on a rookie deal and could be a top 10 center in the league. I would assume there would be a lot of GM's lining up to make a really good offer.
                    Patterson is a pretty good defender. He looks bad when he is paired with TH or Hayes same goes for his rebounding. 2Pats and JJ really got active defensively together with Amir.

                    Comment


                    • A lot of people are looking at it with expectation that he'll kill it in the forth, that we will be better. So is this for development or stat-padding? Because if this is about development then we will have to expect him to also fail on his assignments. If we're ready to lose games than I can understand. But if you're already expecting him to dominate in forth then what is this about?

                      But I don't know. This whole thing will disrupt chemistry in my opinion. Mantra is to die for one another and sacrifice for one another. But in case of JV he needs to be fed in forth to punish teams for going small that means ball is out of Kyle's hands or Derozan's hands or Ross. So I guess either there's no development to be made in their case or their development is not important. That also means that line up of Amir or Patterson is scrapped. It just seems to me everybody has to make a sacrifice except JV.
                      Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

                      Comment


                      • Bendit wrote: View Post
                        Sigh. Come on now....are we not taking this a bit far? Trade JV??? 3rd season? You mean 14 games into the 3rd season with the team 12-2 and imo has yet to find it's ceiling? Whatever happened to the "patience" mantra? It's very interesting that the team has the record it does and some want to actually consider trading our CENTRE who is probably just scratching the surface talent wise and by all indications is someone the org. and players really like (and he them?).

                        It's one thing to be somewhat disappointed that he has not shown the level of improvements expected ...and quite another to trade him...and for who (you didnt say)? He knows the system....how long will the newbie take and a bunch of other considerations. Can we at least wait out this year or did you actually believe before this season began that this team was destined for at least the ECF? What is occurring right now as far as I am concerned is as unexpected as the effect the traded players from SAC had on this team. Cannot mess with it right now...not until there is very very very good reason to....and I just believe this thinking is way too premature and a severe over-reaction to a perceived thinking of the coaching staff decision making. Frankly if Masai felt that JV was being held back...I'd rather he fire Casey than trade JV at this time. Any faults JV has (other than his quicks) are all correctable and are outweighed by his plusses.

                        Rant over...excuse moi.
                        I think you got it wrong.. I don't want JV traded.. but if the coaching staff has no faith in the guy.. and if Masai completely believes in the coaching staff.. then shouldn't it make sense to move him while his stock is high?

                        As for patience.. sure but what exactly did he do so wrong? Is he really that bad defensively that we'd rather have Patterson, Hansborough or Hayes out there? JV is our only good rebounder.. and possession is really important in the 4th quarter.

                        Comment


                        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                          If you're in the minority, you're not alone. The rhetoric around JV's D gets really out of hand. He's actually far more solid than he's being given credit for.
                          To that end, I just wanted to supply a few stats:

                          Opponent FG% @ rim per NBA.com:
                          Jonas 50.5%
                          Amir 50.7%
                          Patman 51.4%
                          JJ 53.1%
                          Chuck 56.5%
                          Handsbro 57.4%

                          Opponent ORatg On/Off doesn't tell the story because Kyle is at a -11.9, which may be a function of us playing at a higher pace with the starters and the general advantage of our bench.

                          Individual DRatgs:
                          JJ 97
                          Chuck 100
                          Jonas 101
                          Patman 102
                          Amir 103
                          Handsbro 104

                          Total rebounding %:
                          Jonas 19.3%
                          Hansbro 12.8%
                          Patman 11.9%
                          Chuck 11.5%
                          Amir 11.0%
                          JJ 10.8%

                          Block %
                          JJ 6.6%
                          Jonas 4.4%
                          Amir 4.4%
                          Patman 1.9%
                          Hansbro 0.9%
                          Chuck 0.8%

                          This is not to say that Val is a great defender yet, only that he is not nearly as bad as is being made out. His one issue is awareness, and that is definitely slowly improving. He's not as quick as the power forwards we trot out, so his ability to recover is magnified, but he's getting there. You just have to get him the reps so that situational awareness continues to increase.
                          It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

                          Comment


                          • Well those stats don't matter because he doesn't play in forth and he doesn't play against Small ball. So his stats don't look bad. It's like putting Demar on a weaker perimeter player and put Ross on a better perimeter player. Stats don't tell whole story.
                            Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

                            Comment


                            • MixxAOR wrote: View Post
                              A lot of people are looking at it with expectation that he'll kill it in the forth, that we will be better. So is this for development or stat-padding? Because if this is about development then we will have to expect him to also fail on his assignments. If we're ready to lose games than I can understand. But if you're already expecting him to dominate in forth then what is this about?

                              But I don't know. This whole thing will disrupt chemistry in my opinion. Mantra is to die for one another and sacrifice for one another. But in case of JV he needs to be fed in forth to punish teams for going small that means ball is out of Kyle's hands or Derozan's hands or Ross. So I guess either there's no development to be made in their case or their development is not important. That also means that line up of Amir or Patterson is scrapped. It just seems to me everybody has to make a sacrifice except JV.
                              And we fully expect failures to be a part of throwing him out there.

                              Would you rather play Hayes/Hansbrough???

                              Compare them vs. JV...

                              Our defender can do everything right....JV is best suited to having the highest impact in such a scenario. The exception is Hayes defending low-post threats one on one. But in most other situations, Hayes/Hansbrough making the rotation doesn't mean they have any significant impact on the outcome.

                              Our defender can fail to make his rotation....If it's Hayes/Hansbrough, it's nothing but a negative since they are what they are at this point in their careers. If it's JV, it has the chance to be a positive influence on growth, even though it's a negative in the "now" of the play.

                              JV's sacrificing plenty if you ask me. He's also not complaining or whining about anything. Only complaining is to the refs. I don't know how much it would disrupt chemistry to get him somewhat more consistent 4th Q minutes. I also don't think it takes the ball out of our other players' hands. JV's efficiency is kind of absurd, so you don't need to force-feed him, just keep an eye out because he's bound to be open or have deep post position at some point or another. It hasn't forced the ball out of other players' hands for the other 3 quarters, so I don't know why suddenly you can't integrate him offensively in the 4th without it being a negative (especially since he's one of our most efficient scorers).

                              And again, nobody...NOBODY (I think...at least most of us) has talked about scrapping the Amir/2Pat lineup which frequently closes games. You could get JV minutes in the early-mid 4th without really influencing what happens in the last 4-5 minutes with lineups/adjustments. And then only use him to close things out if matchups/performance call for it.

                              Comment


                              • It's all Masai's fault for hiring this fool of a coach, the day after last season ended, who doesn't know anything about developing this young big man. March on Masai's office and help him see the light!!

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