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  • TRex wrote: View Post
    So...............does that mean he's a great post up player? what do you think?
    JV finishes 33% of his plays in the post. That's 12th in the entire league.

    Among all players with more than 25% of their plays from the post (the 28 most used post up guys in the league), he has the single highest PPP. He has the second highest FG%. He's middle of the pack in free throw rate and turnover rate. Purely in terms of reliable scoring (guy you can just give it to in the post when you need a bucket), he is best on the list in score frequency.

    And that's all among the top 28 post up guys (in terms of their teams using them there) in the entire league.

    So, yeah, I'd say he's a great post up player already. And given more reps and an offence designed to get him deeper looks and more passing opportunities, who knows how good he could eventually be?
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      JV finishes 33% of his plays in the post. That's 12th in the entire league.

      Among all players with more than 25% of their plays from the post (the 28 most used post up guys in the league), he has the single highest PPP. He has the second highest FG%. He's middle of the pack in free throw rate and turnover rate. Purely in terms of reliable scoring (guy you can just give it to in the post when you need a bucket), he is best on the list in score frequency.

      And that's all among the top 28 post up guys (in terms of their teams using them there) in the entire league.

      So, yeah, I'd say he's a great post up player already. And given more reps and an offence designed to get him deeper looks and more passing opportunities, who knows how good he could eventually be?
      He's a great post up player already? you can't be serious? maybe i just have a high standard?

      I grew up watching guys like Olajuwon and Ewing and Robinson, Sabonis, Shaq, Duncan. Now those are GREAT post up players. In today's NBA the only post up bigs that impresses me is Cousins and the Gasol brothers. Guys like Howard and Vucevic are pretty good too. But not Cousins good, and definitely not Hakeem or Duncan good. JV is nowhere near as good a post up player as Howard or Vucevic.

      Also, there's a big difference between "finishing" and "posting up"
      Last edited by The Great One; Thu Mar 19, 2015, 11:00 PM.
      Mamba Mentality

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      • TRex wrote: View Post
        He's a great post up player already? you can't be serious? maybe i just have a high standard?

        I grew up watching guys like Olajuwon and Ewing and Robinson, Sabonis, Shaq, Duncan. Now those are GREAT post up players. In today's NBA the only post up bigs that impresses me is Cousins and the Gasol brothers. Guys like Howard and Vucevic are pretty good too. But not Cousins good, and definitely not Hakeem or Duncan good. JV is nowhere near as good a post up player as Howard or Vucevic.

        Also, there's a big difference between "finishing" and "posting up"
        I get what you're saying but I think those guys (mind you out of 'em I've only watched Shaq and Duncan, basing this off reputation) are legends, I wouldn't say they're great, I'd hail them as the creme de la creme of post-up bigs. They're way better than just great.

        I also think what Dan is looking at isn't simply the amazing awe of watching Jonas post-up, he looks at how efficiently Jonas scores in post-ups, and I agree with him, Jonas is great at scoring off post-ups. His post moves aren't anything special, but they work effectively.

        I also think I agree with you when you say the Gasols and Cousins are better post-up bigs than Jonas. Jonas' fantastic efficiency is in part due to how frequently he gets the ball. And he gets it occasionally, and arguably even less than that. Once, Jonas' touches go up, I won't be surprised if he ends up lower than the Gasols/Cousins in efficiency.

        So yeah. I guess it all depends on what you believe is "great".
        Last edited by Mindlessness; Thu Mar 19, 2015, 11:58 PM. Reason: Repetititititititiveness

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        • Mindlessness wrote: View Post
          I get what you're saying but I think those guys (mind you out of 'em I've only watched Shaq and Duncan, basing this off reputation) are legends, I wouldn't say they're great, I'd hail them as the creme de la creme of post-up bigs. They're way better than just great.

          I also think what Dan is looking at isn't simply the amazing awe of watching Jonas post-up, he looks at how efficiently Jonas scores in post-ups, and I agree with him, Jonas is great at scoring off post-ups. His post moves aren't anything special, but they work effectively.

          I also think I agree with you when you say the Gasols and Cousins are better post-up bigs than Jonas. Jonas' fantastic efficiency is in part due to how frequently he gets the ball. And he gets it occasionally, and arguably even less than that. Once, Jonas' touches go up, I won't be surprised if he ends up lower than the Gasols/Cousins in efficiency.

          So yeah. I guess it all depends on what you believe is "great".
          Vlad Divac noted how "unskilled" Shaq was. He was just so physically strong that he could just back guys down from anywhere. JV is already dominating guys physically even against guys like Mosgov and Asik. He isn't a Cousins or Monroe skilled C but just a beast down low.

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          • TRex wrote: View Post
            He's a great post up player already? you can't be serious? maybe i just have a high standard?

            I grew up watching guys like Olajuwon and Ewing and Robinson, Sabonis, Shaq, Duncan. Now those are GREAT post up players. In today's NBA the only post up bigs that impresses me is Cousins and the Gasol brothers. Guys like Howard and Vucevic are pretty good too. But not Cousins good, and definitely not Hakeem or Duncan good. JV is nowhere near as good a post up player as Howard or Vucevic.

            Also, there's a big difference between "finishing" and "posting up"
            Mindlessness wrote: View Post
            I get what you're saying but I think those guys (mind you out of 'em I've only watched Shaq and Duncan, basing this off reputation) are legends, I wouldn't say they're great, I'd hail them as the creme de la creme of post-up bigs. They're way better than just great.

            I also think what Dan is looking at isn't simply the amazing awe of watching Jonas post-up, he looks at how efficiently Jonas scores in post-ups, and I agree with him, Jonas is great at scoring off post-ups. His post moves aren't anything special, but they work effectively.

            I also think I agree with you when you say the Gasols and Cousins are better post-up bigs than Jonas. Jonas' fantastic efficiency is in part due to how frequently he gets the ball. And he gets it occasionally, and arguably even less than that. Once, Jonas' touches go up, I won't be surprised if he ends up lower than the Gasols/Cousins in efficiency.

            So yeah. I guess it all depends on what you believe is "great".
            Marc Gasol: 7 post up finishes per 36 minutes, 0.96 PPP
            Pau Gasol: 5.9 post up finishes per 36 minutes, 0.88 PPP
            DeMarcus Cousins: 8.6 post up finishes per 36 minutes, 0.89 PPP
            Dwight Howard: 9.7 post up finishes per 36 minutes, 0.76 PPP
            Nik Vucevic: 6.5 post up finishes per 36 minutes, 0.88 PPP

            Jonas Valanciunas: 5 post up finishes per 36 minutes, 1.00 PPP

            Sure, he gets it a lot less than Howard for example, but he's also dramatically more efficient than Howard. He manages a similar, though slightly lesser per minute post up rate as Vucevic and the Gasols, while posting a significantly better efficiency (slightly better in M Gasol's case). Cousins is extremely impressive managing a decent efficiency on a very high usage.

            So Jonas seems to fit right in with this group, with a higher efficiency and a little lower usage. Which suggests that he is comparable to them in post efficacy. If this is the group of guys with whom you are most impressed in terms of their post games, I have a hard time understanding why you are not impressed by Jonas' post game.

            Again, I'm not claiming Jonas is better than those guys - but those guys are the elite post up players of this generation, and Jonas doesn't seem particularly out of place in comparison to them.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • TRex wrote: View Post
              He's a great post up player already? you can't be serious? maybe i just have a high standard?

              I grew up watching guys like Olajuwon and Ewing and Robinson, Sabonis, Shaq, Duncan. Now those are GREAT post up players. In today's NBA the only post up bigs that impresses me is Cousins and the Gasol brothers. Guys like Howard and Vucevic are pretty good too. But not Cousins good, and definitely not Hakeem or Duncan good. JV is nowhere near as good a post up player as Howard or Vucevic.

              Also, there's a big difference between "finishing" and "posting up"
              In his last 4 games, Valanciunas is 25/32 (78%) with 42 rebounds, 5 blocks, 2 assists, 5 turnovers... in just 93 minutes (23.25 MPG)!

              The only thing holding Valanciunas back from being considered one of the best and most promising young bigs in the NBA today is playing time and opportunity! He's made huge improvements this season, whether you want to acknowledge them or not.

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              • raptors999 wrote: View Post
                Vlad Divac noted how "unskilled" Shaq was. He was just so physically strong that he could just back guys down from anywhere.
                Shaq had great footwork but didn't really need to use it when he could just bully weaker guys.

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                • Why wouldn't we want to build a team solely around JV? The only cons I can think about at this very moment is his ability to be a great PnR defender. That's it. He can do everything else or has shown flashes of it. Shaq couldn't guard the PnR either, but the dude won lots of games.

                  JV will force us to play a slower pace, but that will lead to better defense. Build the team to run 4 out 1 in with JV and Bebe on the interior (similar to Gasol and Kufos off the bench).

                  I don't even care if JV ever makes an all-star game. Those don't mean squat. I can see him being at least second team NBA offense and defense in his career....and that is where true champions cut their teeth

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                  • TRex wrote: View Post
                    He's a great post up player already? you can't be serious? maybe i just have a high standard?

                    I grew up watching guys like Olajuwon and Ewing and Robinson, Sabonis, Shaq, Duncan. Now those are GREAT post up players. In today's NBA the only post up bigs that impresses me is Cousins and the Gasol brothers. Guys like Howard and Vucevic are pretty good too. But not Cousins good, and definitely not Hakeem or Duncan good. JV is nowhere near as good a post up player as Howard or Vucevic.

                    Also, there's a big difference between "finishing" and "posting up"
                    So it is hall of fame or bust for JV? Those comparisons are unfair for just about any player. Let's compare every PG to Stockton or every wing to Scottie Pippen.

                    I see all the cousins love and then ragging on JV for his turnovers. JV averages 1.3 To per game. Cousins 4.2. JV tov% 12.3. Cousins tov% 16.4. Cousins is a better player but I find it ironic that what is so important to people in JV is one of the biggest flaws in Cousins.

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                    • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                      So it is hall of fame or bust for JV? Those comparisons are unfair for just about any player. Let's compare every PG to Stockton or every wing to Scottie Pippen.

                      I see all the cousins love and then ragging on JV for his turnovers. JV averages 1.3 To per game. Cousins 4.2. JV tov% 12.3. Cousins tov% 16.4. Cousins is a better player but I find it ironic that what is so important to people in JV is one of the biggest flaws in Cousins.
                      Trex doesn't believe in stats

                      Unless they strengthen his narrative.
                      "Stay steamy"

                      - Kobe

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                      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        In his last 4 games, Valanciunas is 25/32 (78%) with 42 rebounds, 5 blocks, 2 assists, 5 turnovers... in just 93 minutes (23.25 MPG)!

                        The only thing holding Valanciunas back from being considered one of the best and most promising young bigs in the NBA today is playing time and opportunity! He's made huge improvements this season, whether you want to acknowledge them or not.

                        People should tune in to the opposition broadcast whenever possible. Just about every opposing team broadcasters speak incredulously about the lack of 4th Q playing time for JV and the style of play/shot selection from the team.

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                        • TRex wrote: View Post
                          He's a great post up player already? you can't be serious? maybe i just have a high standard?

                          I grew up watching guys like Olajuwon and Ewing and Robinson, Sabonis, Shaq, Duncan. Now those are GREAT post up players. In today's NBA the only post up bigs that impresses me is Cousins and the Gasol brothers. Guys like Howard and Vucevic are pretty good too. But not Cousins good, and definitely not Hakeem or Duncan good. JV is nowhere near as good a post up player as Howard or Vucevic.

                          Also, there's a big difference between "finishing" and "posting up"
                          So do you want to compare Lowry and Demar to the all time greats? Magic, Stockton, kidd, isiah for Lowry and Kobe, Jordan, and drexler. It would get downright embarrassing for dd and Lowry and I'm pretty sure they've been called great players by one of the NBA "experts".
                          "Stay steamy"

                          - Kobe

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                          • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                            In his last 4 games, Valanciunas is 25/32 (78%) with 42 rebounds, 5 blocks, 2 assists, 5 turnovers... in just 93 minutes (23.25 MPG)!

                            The only thing holding Valanciunas back from being considered one of the best and most promising young bigs in the NBA today is playing time and opportunity! He's made huge improvements this season, whether you want to acknowledge them or not.
                            I would add style of play to that. Passing in & out of the post would need to become an overall team priority and practiced repeatedly with multiple variations in strategy, angle, options, etc...

                            JV already IS one of the most promising young bigs in the NBA.

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                            • And with more regular involvement in the offence, his percentages and effectiveness can only increase. As it is now, you can see him forcing every post touch that he gets, because he knows he might not get another for god knows how long.

                              More regular involvement will lead to better patience and selectivity, I think.
                              "Stop eating your sushi."
                              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                              - Jack Armstrong

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                              • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                                And with more regular involvement in the offence, his percentages and effectiveness can only increase. As it is now, you can see him forcing every post touch that he gets, because he knows he might not get another for god knows how long.

                                More regular involvement will lead to better patience and selectivity, I think.
                                More Regular involvement will probably lead to a nicer whistle for him as well. That would help.

                                To touch on the numbers that DanH posted; I'm happy to see that. It makes me feel a little less radical in saying I would take him over pretty much every other big in post up situations already.

                                To touch on Trex's post about all the legends and how JV fits into that : Those guys were amazing to watch and some of the best to ever play the game. JV is a great post player. He scores the ball, whether it's pretty or not doesn't really matter. Will he be dominant in the same way as anyone else on that list? No way to tell yet, he hasn't been a focus point on a team with enough touches to tell.

                                JV will be dominant in the post in this league, whether that will translate into a C capable of dominating a game has yet to be seen. But if he gets that mid range jumper down I would hate to have to guard him

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