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  • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Does he not pass in Fiba as well?
    courts too small

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    • Fully wrote: View Post
      Of course there's some context warranted when looking at how dreadful JV's playmaking numbers are, but to absolve him of blame and once again circle around to making it DeRozan or whoever's fault? I don't really buy it. And it's not as if his passing numbers just left something to be desired, he was legitimately the worst passer/playmaker in the NBA last season for anyone who played significant minutes.
      The 'issue' with JV's passing isn't that it's bad, it's that it doesn't happen often enough for some. To call him the 'worst' passer is ridiculous.
      Last edited by JimiCliff; Tue Sep 8th, 2015, 08:53 PM.
      "Stop eating your sushi."
      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
      - Jack Armstrong

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      • Fully wrote: View Post
        Of course there's some context warranted when looking at how dreadful JV's playmaking numbers are, but to absolve him of blame and once again circle around to making it DeRozan or whoever's fault? I don't really buy it. And it's not as if his passing numbers just left something to be desired, he was legitimately the worst passer/playmaker in the NBA last season for anyone who played significant minutes.

        It's probably the biggest factor that holds me back from drinking the 'JV as a legit star' kool-aid; I've yet to see him exhibit a feel for the game on offence outside of scoring in his own little bubble in the post. And that's a worthwhile skill in itself, but when we talk about making him the focal point on offence I kind of cringe. As it stands now anyway. Here's hoping he shows some real development in that area this year.

        when you are so low on pecking order and dont get alot of possession youvarent going tovsee great playmaking.

        you need the ball to playmake.

        and he was .1% being deandre jordan last season. i doubt people here would bitch about deandres playmaking.

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        • Averaging 0.7 in Fiba play. 3 games so far 2 Ast 4 TO.
          @Chr1st1anL

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          • Snooch wrote: View Post
            when you are so low on pecking order and dont get alot of possession youvarent going tovsee great playmaking.

            you need the ball to playmake.

            and he was .1% being deandre jordan last season. i doubt people here would bitch about deandres playmaking.
            In back-to-back posts you've advocated for JV not passing the ball because he's the best offensive player and then saying that the reason he doesn't pass is because he doesn't get the ball. You need to consolidate your thoughts.

            Also, I think you continue to misuse the usage stat, or at the very least fail to give it the proper context it deserves (intentionally or not I'm not sure). You make it seem like JV is in this stratosphere by himself when it comes to low usage for big men at 19.1%. There are plenty of superior post players who are marginally ahead of him (P. Gasol, 24.7%, M. Gasol 24.6%, Horford, 22.2%) and some decent posts that come in even lower (Gortat - 17.7%, Mozgov - 16.9%, Noah 13.3%) and manage to be superior playmakers as well. Yes, JV is 7th on the team in usage which is too low and will hopefully be adjusted this season but you need to realize that centres and posts who are top 3 on their team in usage are the exception and not the norm.

            Noah is a great example about the fallacy of your argument actually - he's never had a season that was higher than JV's usage rate this season and yet he's been one of the best passing big men in the NBA year after year. But how? He never gets the ball!

            And the Deandre Jordan thing I'm not even sure what you meant.
            Last edited by Fully; Tue Sep 8th, 2015, 09:07 PM.

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            • Fully wrote: View Post
              In back-to-back posts you've advocated for JV not passing the ball because he's the best offensive player and then saying that the reason he doesn't pass is because he doesn't get the ball.

              Also, I think you continue to misuse the usage stat, or at the very least fail to give it the proper context it deserves (intentionally or not I'm not sure). You make it seem like JV is in this stratosphere by himself when it comes to low usage for big men at 19.1%. There are plenty of superior post players who are marginally ahead of him (P. Gasol, 24.7%, M. Gasol 24.6%, Horford, 22.2%) and some decent posts that come in even lower (Gortat - 17.7%, Mozgov - 16.9%, Noah 13.3%). Noah is a great example about the fallacy of your argument - he's never had a season that was higher than JV's usage rate this season and yet he's been one of the best passing big men in the NBA year after year. But how? He never gets the ball!

              And the Deandre Jordan thing I'm not even sure what you meant.
              Just with regards to Noah: he should be passing the ball as much possible, because he's absolutely brutal shooting it from everywhere on the floor.
              "Stop eating your sushi."
              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
              - Jack Armstrong

              Comment


              • Fully wrote: View Post
                Of course there's some context warranted when looking at how dreadful JV's playmaking numbers are, but to absolve him of blame and once again circle around to making it DeRozan or whoever's fault? I don't really buy it. And it's not as if his passing numbers just left something to be desired, he was legitimately the worst passer/playmaker in the NBA last season for anyone who played significant minutes.

                It's probably the biggest factor that holds me back from drinking the 'JV as a legit star' kool-aid; I've yet to see him exhibit a feel for the game on offence outside of scoring in his own little bubble in the post. And that's a worthwhile skill in itself, but when we talk about making him the focal point on offence I kind of cringe. As it stands now anyway. Here's hoping he shows some real development in that area this year.
                Who made it about DeRozan? The whole team played selfish.

                If context is desired we should probably start with his 17 front court touches per game. Then we could look at his 8.2 field attempts. He isn't a black hole.

                Is he a good play maker? No.
                Has he had much chance to make plays? No.

                The entire offense revolved around watching the guy with the ball.

                Not sure if you ever played the post but tough to make plays or rack up assists with guys standing and watching you.

                Comment


                • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                  Just with regards to Noah: he should be passing the ball as much possible, because he's absolutely brutal shooting it from everywhere on the floor.
                  No argument here; Noah is much more effective as a passer than a scorer. All of these numbers can stand to be used in context really, the problem is that it's done so inconsistently during a lot of these discussions because it becomes poster vs. poster or Derozan vs. JV and all rational thought leaves the building.

                  Comment


                  • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                    Who made it about DeRozan? The whole team played selfish.

                    If context is desired we should probably start with his 17 front court touches per game. Then we could look at his 8.2 field attempts. He isn't a black hole.

                    Is he a good play maker? No.
                    Has he had much chance to make plays? No.

                    The entire offense revolved around watching the guy with the ball.

                    Not sure if you ever played the post but tough to make plays or rack up assists with guys standing and watching you.
                    The numbers certainly show him to not just be a subpar playmaker, but like I said earlier, literally the least prolific one in basketball last season. If you think you see something else using the eye test, then I guess we'll agree to disagree. I think he lacks offensive awareness and feel for anything outside of getting his own shot when he has great position. Thankfully he's not a finished product!
                    Last edited by Fully; Tue Sep 8th, 2015, 09:20 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Is it just me that doesn't mind my C being a black hole on offense? I mean, he's a C, it's not his job to be playmaking. It would be like complaining about lowry not being a good post defender. (All of this is assuming JV isn't THE MAN on offense, which I don't think he'll ever be)
                      "Stay steamy"

                      - Kobe

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                      • Fully wrote: View Post
                        The numbers certainly show him to not just be a subpar playmaker, but like I said earlier, literally the least prolific one in basketball last season. If you think you see something else using the eye test, then I guess we'll agree to disagree. I think he lacks offensive awareness and feel for anything outside of getting his own shot when he has great position. Thankfully he's not a finished product!
                        So, unlike everyone else on the roster, JV didn't pass. When PG and SG are having really low asst% a C not moving the ball around isn't a surprise.

                        Comment


                        • Fully wrote: View Post
                          The numbers certainly show him to not just be a subpar playmaker, but like I said earlier, literally the least prolific one in basketball last season. If you think you see something else using the eye test, then I guess we'll agree to disagree. I think he lacks offensive awareness and feel for anything outside of getting his own shot when he has great position. Thankfully he's not a finished product!
                          Not sure what stats you're quoting.

                          NBA site has him with just 0.9 assist opportunities per game.
                          He had of course 0.5 assists per game.
                          When you factor in teammates missed shots and bad passes, 0.5 is pretty damn good, I think.

                          The stats and the eye test are showing me he has had very limited opportunity to make plays for his teammates as the team as a whole stood and watched whichever player had possession of the ball. There was very little on and off ball movement. Again, not sure you've ever played the post but when teammates don't move, it is really hard to make a pass out of the block.

                          Most guys on the team last season had assists per game 50% or greater of assist opportunities...there are two notable exceptions.

                          Comment


                          • raptors999 wrote: View Post
                            So, unlike everyone else on the roster, JV didn't pass. When PG and SG are having really low asst% a C not moving the ball around isn't a surprise.
                            Out of 77 qualifying guards who played more than 25 mpg last season, Lowry was 19th in AST% and Derozan was 49th.

                            Out of 29 qualifying big men with the same minute qualification, JV was dead last.

                            Comment


                            • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                              Not sure what stats you're quoting.

                              NBA site has him with just 0.9 assist opportunities per game.
                              He had of course 0.5 assists per game.
                              When you factor in teammates missed shots and bad passes, 0.5 is pretty damn good, I think.

                              The stats and the eye test are showing me he has had very limited opportunity to make plays for his teammates as the team as a whole stood and watched whichever player had possession of the ball. There was very little on and off ball movement. Again, not sure you've ever played the post but when teammates don't move, it is really hard to make a pass out of the block.

                              Most guys on the team last season had assists per game 50% or greater of assist opportunities...there are two notable exceptions.
                              256 players played over 1000 minutes or more this past year in the league..

                              In terms of assists per game, JV ranks 250th out of those 256.
                              In total assists, JV ranks 254th out of 256. (He played 1800 minutes btw, nearly double the qualifying mark)
                              In assist percentage, JV ranks 255th out of 256 players.

                              205 players played over 25 minutes per game last year…

                              JV is 204th of 205 in assists that directly lead to free throws for a teammate.
                              JV is 204th of 205 in secondary assists aka the hockey assist per game.
                              JV is dead last in assist opportunities per game.
                              JV is dead last in points created by assist per game.

                              Edit: I also don't think you know what assist opportunities per game means.
                              Last edited by Fully; Tue Sep 8th, 2015, 09:55 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Fully wrote: View Post
                                Out of 77 qualifying guards who played more than 25 mpg last season, Lowry was 19th in AST% and Derozan was 49th.

                                Out of 29 qualifying big men with the same minute qualification, JV was dead last.
                                There are 30 starting PG and SG. Being 19th in asst% isn't great since some teams have literally no shooters

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