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  • yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
    So I guess you can't criticize Jv since he's only a 23 year old centre who's average at worst at every faucet of his game...
    It is awesome that the biggest criticism of the 23 year old C is his passing game and lack of Hakeem-sequel footwork.

    His rebounding and individual defense are superb. His efficiency is fantastic. His advanced stats are near elite.


    Get a coach who knows how to use him and we can continue dissecting his passing game.

    Comment


    • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
      It is awesome that the biggest criticism of the 23 year old C is his passing game and lack of Hakeem-sequel footwork.

      His rebounding and individual defense are superb. His efficiency is fantastic. His advanced stats are near elite.


      Get a coach who knows how to use him and we can continue dissecting his passing game.
      Exactly! Dwane Casey still being here pisses me off beyond belief.
      I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

      Comment


      • yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
        So I guess you can't criticize Jv since he's only a 23 year old centre who's average at worst at every faucet of his game...
        There's a few comments like this in here, and I'm not sure why. Some people want the discussion to be "Jonas' passing sucks. Full stop." and nothing more? It seems that way.
        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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        • S.R. wrote: View Post
          There's a few comments like this in here, and I'm not sure why. Some people want the discussion to be "Jonas' passing sucks. Full stop." and nothing more? It seems that way.
          There are some who see the glass half full, other half empty, and still others who see the glass is cracked and poisoned.

          Comment


          • S.R. wrote: View Post
            There's a few comments like this in here, and I'm not sure why. Some people want the discussion to be "Jonas' passing sucks. Full stop." and nothing more? It seems that way.
            more like, jonas passing sucks. followed by a avalanch of posters saying hes average at worst and most of the blame should be put on casey and/or demar.

            kinda how every debate around here ends up. nothings his fault, its the system and/or the players around hims fault
            I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

            Comment


            • Katman wrote: View Post
              There are some who see the glass half full, other half empty, and still others who see the glass is cracked and poisoned.
              Plus some who don't notice any difference between those two.

              I don't really see many (any?) people saying that JV sucks and needs to go. Mostly just people who think that JV is ready for a much bigger role, even as a centerpiece of the offense, and people who don't think he's ready for that.

              "JV is 23 and pretty good?" I think most of us (all of us?) agree, in which case those responses are missing the point. This isn't a DD thread with two radical camps where half the people want the guy gone.

              I think there's a lot of miscommunication in this thread. Maybe it's DD thread withdrawal.

              Comment


              • Katman wrote: View Post
                There are some who see the glass half full, other half empty, and still others who see the glass is cracked and poisoned.
                Who is saying the glass is cracked and poisoned?

                When did balanced discussion die on this forum? I like JV. I think he's progressed very well in a lot of facets of his game, however his playmaking abilities are still somewhere near non-existent. Partially because he's played in a system that hasn't done him any favours with his development, and partially because he lacks a lot of the inherent skills and awareness. He can lack these skills (for now) and still be a good young player that we're excited to have signed up for the foreseeable future. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

                And to take it further, no one is defending Coach Casey, or saying the team played an enjoyable style of basketball during the back of half last season that was packed full of ball movement and equal touches for people. But once again, that doesn't automatically absolve JV from any blame and make him a 'pretty damn good' playmaker or whatever other silly arbitrary comment you want to lob out there.

                That's what makes it difficult to take most of you seriously; the way you just decide based on the player/subject at hand what stats you're going to completely dismiss, and which ones you will cling on to for dear life. Which times you "LOL!!" at posters who mention the eye test, and which times your own eye test overrules any data that is presented. Etc. Etc.
                Last edited by Fully; Sat Sep 12, 2015, 11:21 PM.

                Comment


                • Fully wrote: View Post
                  Who is saying the glass is cracked and poisoned?

                  When did balanced discussion die on this forum? I like JV. I think he's progressed very well in a lot of facets of his game, however his playmaking abilities are still somewhere near non-existent. Partially because he's played in a system that hasn't done him any favours with his development, and partially because he lacks a lot of the inherent skills and awareness. He can lack these skills (for now) and still be a good young player that we're excited to have signed up for the foreseeable future. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

                  And to take it further, no one is defending Coach Casey, or saying the team played an enjoyable style of basketball during the back of half last season that was packed full of ball movement and equal touches for people. But once again, that doesn't automatically absolve JV from any blame and make him a 'pretty damn good' playmaker or whatever other silly arbitrary comment you want to lob out there.

                  That's what makes it difficult to take most of you seriously; the way you just decide based on the player/subject at hand what stats you're going to completely dismiss, and which ones you will cling on to for dear life. Which times you "LOL!!" at posters who mention the eye test, and which times your own eye test overrules any data that is presented. Etc. Etc.
                  Great post.
                  I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

                  Comment


                  • Fully wrote: View Post
                    Who is saying the glass is cracked and poisoned?

                    When did balanced discussion die on this forum? I like JV. I think he's progressed very well in a lot of facets of his game, however his playmaking abilities are still somewhere near non-existent. Partially because he's played in a system that hasn't done him any favours with his development, and partially because he lacks a lot of the inherent skills and awareness. He can lack these skills (for now) and still be a good young player that we're excited to have signed up for the foreseeable future. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

                    And to take it further, no one is defending Coach Casey, or saying the team played an enjoyable style of basketball during the back of half last season that was packed full of ball movement and equal touches for people. But once again, that doesn't automatically absolve JV from any blame and make him a 'pretty damn good' playmaker or whatever other silly arbitrary comment you want to lob out there.

                    That's what makes it difficult to take most of you seriously; the way you just decide based on the player/subject at hand what stats you're going to completely dismiss, and which ones you will cling on to for dear life. Which times you "LOL!!" at posters who mention the eye test, and which times your own eye test overrules any data that is presented. Etc. Etc.
                    +1
                    @Chr1st1anL

                    Comment


                    • Fully wrote: View Post
                      Who is saying the glass is cracked and poisoned?

                      When did balanced discussion die on this forum? I like JV. I think he's progressed very well in a lot of facets of his game, however his playmaking abilities are still somewhere near non-existent. Partially because he's played in a system that hasn't done him any favours with his development, and partially because he lacks a lot of the inherent skills and awareness. He can lack these skills (for now) and still be a good young player that we're excited to have signed up for the foreseeable future. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

                      And to take it further, no one is defending Coach Casey, or saying the team played an enjoyable style of basketball during the back of half last season that was packed full of ball movement and equal touches for people. But once again, that doesn't automatically absolve JV from any blame and make him a 'pretty damn good' playmaker or whatever other silly arbitrary comment you want to lob out there.

                      That's what makes it difficult to take most of you seriously; the way you just decide based on the player/subject at hand what stats you're going to completely dismiss, and which ones you will cling on to for dear life. Which times you "LOL!!" at posters who mention the eye test, and which times your own eye test overrules any data that is presented. Etc. Etc.
                      nobody who watches JV would argue that he doesnt pass alot but that really isnt about whether he can or not. just like Demar and his shooting, he could be a better shooter but currently he never spots up. Scola is considered a good post passer and if he isnt passing then it obviously is something other than players abilities.

                      Comment


                      • Fully wrote: View Post
                        Who is saying the glass is cracked and poisoned?

                        When did balanced discussion die on this forum? I like JV. I think he's progressed very well in a lot of facets of his game, however his playmaking abilities are still somewhere near non-existent. Partially because he's played in a system that hasn't done him any favours with his development, and partially because he lacks a lot of the inherent skills and awareness. He can lack these skills (for now) and still be a good young player that we're excited to have signed up for the foreseeable future. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

                        And to take it further, no one is defending Coach Casey, or saying the team played an enjoyable style of basketball during the back of half last season that was packed full of ball movement and equal touches for people. But once again, that doesn't automatically absolve JV from any blame and make him a 'pretty damn good' playmaker or whatever other silly arbitrary comment you want to lob out there.

                        That's what makes it difficult to take most of you seriously; the way you just decide based on the player/subject at hand what stats you're going to completely dismiss, and which ones you will cling on to for dear life. Which times you "LOL!!" at posters who mention the eye test, and which times your own eye test overrules any data that is presented. Etc. Etc.
                        I think there was blow back on your post for several reasons:

                        1. You presented the stats and the comment that JV is "historically bad" at passing but didn't concede any of the mitigating factors that you have subsequently admitted exist (system/coaching factors). Context matters and that is where most people seemed to come in from.

                        2. Criticizing JV's passing feels a bit like criticizing Ross' post game - neither have been seen (or developed) under Casey and neither are primary skills for a player of that position to be successful. A center who can pass is great but it is far from a necessity. Plenty of great centers were not great passers. Much like a wing with strong post moves, it adds a dynamic to the offence that can be a huge advantage but that is often because it is not the norm.

                        3. The stats you presented are questionable. I tried to replicate them and could not (see my previous reply for full details); JV was 10th or 11th worse rather than 5th (off the top of my head). Your post also had JV playing a season minutes total that was inaccurate, further calling into question your findings.


                        As for your last paragraph, keep your comments directed at topics and not other posters please.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • Axel wrote: View Post
                          I think there was blow back on your post for several reasons:

                          1. You presented the stats and the comment that JV is "historically bad" at passing but didn't concede any of the mitigating factors that you have subsequently admitted exist (system/coaching factors). Context matters and that is where most people seemed to come in from.

                          2. Criticizing JV's passing feels a bit like criticizing Ross' post game - neither have been seen (or developed) under Casey and neither are primary skills for a player of that position to be successful. A center who can pass is great but it is far from a necessity. Plenty of great centers were not great passers. Much like a wing with strong post moves, it adds a dynamic to the offence that can be a huge advantage but that is often because it is not the norm.

                          3. The stats you presented are questionable. I tried to replicate them and could not (see my previous reply for full details); JV was 10th or 11th worse rather than 5th (off the top of my head). Your post also had JV playing a season minutes total that was inaccurate, further calling into question your findings.


                          As for your last paragraph, keep your comments directed at topics and not other posters please.
                          You'll have to show me where I used the term 'historically bad' because as far as I can see the only person who has used it in this conversation is you. I've also repeated myself 3-4 times now about how the Raptors style of play is not conducive to great passing/playmaking and that JV is still developing, etc. so I'm not sure about your point about a lack of context or how I've been unwilling to concede any mitigating factors either. I think a lot of folks just start to see red whenever something gets said about JV that isn't a ringing endorsement and a lot of the nuance of certain posts gets lost.

                          As to your second point, If you don't think that being an effective passer/playmaker for a big man is necessary, especially if you advocate for JV to get a lot more touches and a larger role in the offence, then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's only natural that if he assumes a bigger role, more defensive attention, double teams, game planning to stop him will quickly come his way and it will become imperative for him to be able to make plays for his teammates. Regardless, I've become lost on what the reason behind JV's poor playmaking numbers are… I've read that he shouldn't be passing to his teammates anyway, I've read that it's impossible for him to be a good playmaker in this system, and now I've read that it's not even necessary for him to do it.

                          With regards to the stats, I mined those numbers near the end of the season and when I posted it I didn't realize that I was missing a few contests on the back end. For the sake of fairness, here are the same stats from his full 2014-15 campaign:

                          272 players played over 1000 minutes or more this past year in the league..

                          In terms of assists per game, JV tied for 267th out of 272.

                          In total assists, JV tied for 271st out of 272. (He played 2096 minutes by the way, over double the qualifying mark. The player who finished below him on this list was Whiteside, who played ~900 minutes less than him)

                          In assist percentage, JV tied for 267th out of 272.

                          Source: Basketball Reference.

                          202 players played over 25 minutes per game last year…

                          JV was tied for last in passes that directly led to free throws for a teammate, and as far as I can tell did not have one of these instances the entire year (his FT assists per game reads 0.0 over 80 games)

                          JV is tied for dead last in secondary assists per game, aka the hockey assist. (0.2 / game)

                          JV is 202/202, or dead last, in assist opportunities per game, meaning how many times he delivered a pass to a teammate that would have been an assist if the teammate made the shot. So if JV kicks it out to someone and they heave a long jumper, JV would get credit for that under this stat. He averages less than one of these instances per game.

                          JV is 201/202 in points created by assist per game.

                          Source: http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/pla...gular%20Season

                          So yes, still one of the least effective passers and playmakers in the game last season by virtually every metric. By definition.

                          My overall point remains the same… the team needs to shift to a style of play that helps everyone become better playmakers (not just Jonas) and JV individually has tremendous room for improvement as well. These two statements can be true at the same time, and that's what I've been trying to say all along.
                          Last edited by Fully; Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:03 AM.

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                          • Calm down guys. God forbid JV actually isn't perfect.
                            @Chr1st1anL

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                            • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                              Calm down guys. God forbid JV actually isn't perfect.
                              Who ever said he was perfect?

                              But when people are literally fabricating/falsely representing data to criticize him, it doesn't really make it much of a debate or discussion.

                              When critics provide a cogent argument, then maybe others will be more willing to accept it.

                              Comment


                              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                                Who ever said he was perfect?

                                But when people are literally fabricating/falsely representing data to criticize him, it doesn't really make it much of a debate or discussion.

                                When critics provide a cogent argument, then maybe others will be more willing to accept it.
                                How are his passing stats being falsely represented?
                                @Chr1st1anL

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