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  • stretch wrote: View Post
    Another look at the real plus/minus is the WAR stat or Wins Above Replacement. If you click on the letters WAR at the top right of the table on real plus/minus table (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/9) it organizes the table based on WAR. JV is 24th. Jordan, Cousins, Chandler, Gasol and Zaza are the top 5.
    Still in the same realm of poor stats though. DD is 29th behind the Andre Roberson and Alan Anderson's of the league.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • Axel wrote: View Post
      Still in the same realm of poor stats though. DD is 29th behind the Andre Roberson and Alan Anderson's of the league.
      You are just being selective. All stats have their limitations but scoring more points than the other team while on the floor does seem pertinent.

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      • stretch wrote: View Post
        You are just being selective. All stats have their limitations but scoring more points than the other team while on the floor does seem pertinent.
        It's just as selective to ignore that Zaza Pachulia was number 2 in RPM for centres. Stats are nothing without context. Doesn't disqualify RPM but does suggest the numbers can't be used as a pure measure of relative value.

        Anyways, Jonas's RPM wasn't great last year but he took a big hit when Greivis was on the floor and was also being asked to hedge out on the perimeter, an issue that should be fixed this year under Andy Greer's new defensive system.

        Expect to see a better showing there this year imo.

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        • Scraptor wrote: View Post
          It's just as selective to ignore that Zaza Pachulia was number 2 in RPM for centres. Stats are nothing without context. Doesn't disqualify RPM but does suggest the numbers can't be used as a pure measure of relative value.

          Anyways, Jonas's RPM wasn't great last year but he took a big hit when Greivis was on the floor and was also being asked to hedge out on the perimeter, an issue that should be fixed this year under Andy Greer's new defensive system.

          Expect to see a better showing there this year imo.
          RPM points to Lowry as being by far the best performer (5th among pgs) for the Raptors last season. All other Raptors were average or worse at their position. Not far off the mark.

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          • RPM is a context-dependent stat. It doesn't measure how well a player plays, or how good they are. It measures the impact they had on their team, in the role they were given, the minutes they were given, and with the teammates they were played with.

            So, JV had a great defensive RPM because he saved that starting lineup with his rim protection, in spite of the typical narrative, and played almost exclusively against opposing teams' top guys. His ORPM was very poor because he didn't fit with the offence that was run and kind of got in the way of DD and Lowry driving into the lane.

            Just like Hansbrough - he was very effective playing a small role alongside one of the best benches in the NBA. No surprise he grades out well.

            But RPM is not saying Hansbrough is better than JV, it is saying Hansbrough was more successful in his role than JV was in his, for various reasons.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • stretch wrote: View Post
              You are just being selective. All stats have their limitations but scoring more points than the other team while on the floor does seem pertinent.
              Uh huh so we should get a top 10 lineup by acquiring a top 10 guy at each position, let's roll out Ellis-Dunleavy-Covington-Morris-Zaza!!

              It's not being selective when you look at the list of players ranked and see so many things that simply don't hold up to the eye test or other stats. Cherry picking a stat and using it on its own is being selective.

              So using your posts, you are basically saying that JV is one of the worst starting centers in the league. Other than Chr1st1an, pretty sure most people see these posts for what they are; stretch is an appropriate user name.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • Axel wrote: View Post
                Uh huh so we should get a top 10 lineup by acquiring a top 10 guy at each position, let's roll out Ellis-Dunleavy-Covington-Morris-Zaza!!

                It's not being selective when you look at the list of players ranked and see so many things that simply don't hold up to the eye test or other stats. Cherry picking a stat and using it on its own is being selective.

                So using your posts, you are basically saying that JV is one of the worst starting centers in the league. Other than Chr1st1an, pretty sure most people see these posts for what they are; stretch is an appropriate user name.
                JV is constantly being propped up stats here on this thread, why is it such a bitter pill a when specific stat works the other way?

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                • DanH wrote: View Post
                  RPM is a context-dependent stat. It doesn't measure how well a player plays, or how good they are. It measures the impact they had on their team, in the role they were given, the minutes they were given, and with the teammates they were played with.
                  Yep. In other words, RPM also measures the effectiveness of coaching. Boom.

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                  • stretch wrote: View Post
                    JV is constantly being propped up stats here on this thread, why is it such a bitter pill a when specific stat works the other way?
                    It's not a bitter pill, it just doesn't actually "work the other way" as you seem to think it does. Using RPM almost works more to "prop him up" because it shows how badly he's being used, not how badly he's playing.

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                    • stretch wrote: View Post
                      JV is constantly being propped up stats here on this thread, why is it such a bitter pill a when specific stat works the other way?
                      Because the stat you used is highly suspect and impacted by things well outside the control of the player. It even says right in the description that "RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors".

                      It's not just in JV's case either. Is Andre Roberson more effective or better than Dwayne Wade? Cause he is ranked higher.

                      What about Lavoy Allen, Tyler Hansbrough, Marvin Williams and Anthony Tolliver all being better than Chris Bosh?

                      Kevin Durant is ranked 20th among SFs. Care to name 20 better?

                      Tony Parker is 75th behind Gary Neal, Ish Smith and Greivis Vasquez.

                      Not all stats are created equal. This one is about as bad as they get.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • Axel wrote: View Post
                        Because the stat you used is highly suspect and impacted by things well outside the control of the player. It even says right in the description that "RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors".

                        It's not just in JV's case either. Is Andre Roberson more effective or better than Dwayne Wade? Cause he is ranked higher.

                        What about Lavoy Allen, Tyler Hansbrough, Marvin Williams and Anthony Tolliver all being better than Chris Bosh?

                        Kevin Durant is ranked 20th among SFs. Care to name 20 better?

                        Tony Parker is 75th behind Gary Neal, Ish Smith and Greivis Vasquez.

                        Not all stats are created equal. This one is about as bad as they get.
                        Durant was 5th in RPM for SF. He was 20th in Wins Above Replacement because he only played 27 games.

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                        • stretch wrote: View Post
                          JV is constantly being propped up stats here on this thread, why is it such a bitter pill a when specific stat works the other way?
                          Because every single stat requires context.... good or bad.... for any player.

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                          • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                            Because every single stat requires context.... good or bad.... for any player.
                            OK. The context in JV's RPM is being on the floor predominantly with starters. Olynyk gets to play with 2nd stringers against reserve players. Different type players, albeit.
                            Last edited by stretch; Thu Oct 15, 2015, 12:58 PM.

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                            • stretch wrote: View Post
                              OK. The context in JV's RPM is being on the floor predominantly with starters. Olynyk gets to play with 2nd stringers against reserve players. Different type players, albeit.
                              I don't think you're understanding the stat.

                              Go back to DanH's post, #6725

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                              • You know what stat passes the smell test much better than RPM? Win Shares. Here's the top 10 centers from last year by win share.

                                1. DeAndre Jordan 12.8
                                2. Tyson Chandler 10.3
                                3. Marc Gasol 10.2
                                4. Rudy Gobert 9.3
                                5. Al Horford 8.7
                                6. Marcin Gortat 8.6
                                7. Jonas Valanciunas 8.2
                                8. Andre Drummond 7.7
                                9. Brook Lopez 7
                                10. Nikola Vucevic 7

                                JV is a very good center and has an excellent chance to move into the top 5 this year with more minutes and touches.

                                Also of note, I wish we had Gobert. How stupid was Denver to trade him on draft night? Extremely stupid. They got the 46th pick, Erick Green, and cash in return.

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