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  • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
    I might mention that Jonas was also brought along pretty slowly in that program. I guess the question becomes whether that struggle for playing time/touches helps or hinders a players development, but that comes down to the individual player and their development.
    Because he spent a year under Casey never running a Pick and Roll

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    • raptors999 wrote: View Post
      Because he spent a year under Casey never running a Pick and Roll
      He was brought along slowly with the Lithuanian national team because Casey under-utilized him in the pick and roll? I'd guess it was more to do with his youth and inexperience. That said, not many would have predicted the post-up power-game that JV has developed with the Raps.

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      • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
        We also have JV buying in to the organization, Casey included, at what looks like a bargain price.

        JV is great now, and had great expectations, coming in, but he was good not great coming into this league. Player expectations coming into fruition is the only evidence of any real merit when it comes to evaluating player development.
        I agree, great price may have been assisted by Casey keeping JVs opportunities to produce down.

        I completely disagree that there is only one real evidence to evaluate development. Context and details are key. Same as you can't judge a coach solely by wins/losses or a player by points scored.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • Axel wrote: View Post
          I agree, great price may have been assisted by Casey keeping JVs opportunities to produce down.

          I completely disagree that there is only one real evidence to evaluate development. Context and details are key. Same as you can't judge a coach solely by wins/losses or a player by points scored.
          One criteria might be to look at the player's draft position and projected ceiling on draft day and see if the player has met or exceeded it. Good development coaches like Pop & Thibs take lottery picks and turn them into MVPs and DPOYs, and turn late 1st rounders and 2nd rounders into all-stars.

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          • golden wrote: View Post
            One criteria might be to look at the player's draft position and projected ceiling on draft day and see if the player has met or exceeded it. Good development coaches like Pop & Thibs take lottery picks and turn them into MVPs and DPOYs, and turn late 1st rounders and 2nd rounders into all-stars.
            How about turning two top ten picks into case studies on inefficiencies Gay and Demar and another into a basketcase Ross. Also a #1 overall Bargs into a joke

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            • golden wrote: View Post
              One criteria might be to look at the player's draft position and projected ceiling on draft day and see if the player has met or exceeded it. Good development coaches like Pop & Thibs take lottery picks and turn them into MVPs and DPOYs, and turn late 1st rounders and 2nd rounders into all-stars.
              The real test is a guy like Bruno - ie someone that Pops wouldn't play right away either. A lot of the right ingredients are there, but the experience is not. Of course so much is also the surrounding personalities and infrastructure, but can you get these young guys buying in selflessly at every level of their developmental hierarchy? Pops did it with with a better-prepared player in Leonard, but I wouldn't be surprised if Casey and Masai and co have Bruno headed on a similar developmental path to his idol Kawhi.

              Back to Jonas, I tend to think the developmental environment of the organization has grown at the same time as he has, and same goes for Casey. I think Casey gets buy in from his young guys, I think there's a healthy level of respect there, and I think that end the end of the day Casey has helped create a culture, hopefully an elite one, where Jonas and our other young players can flourish. And I don't know if there's a whole lot more you can expect, given where we've come from, and excepting the heavy (crunch time) minutes we have seen previous other Raptor prospects receive for better or worse.

              Right now I'm seeing a team with an interesting mix of youth winning ball games, and young Jonas dominating, so I'm a happy camper.

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              • raptors999 wrote: View Post
                How about turning two top ten picks into case studies on inefficiencies Gay and Demar and another into a basketcase Ross. Also a #1 overall Bargs into a joke
                Whoa, whoa, whoa. Casey turned Bargs into a joke?

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                • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                  Whoa, whoa, whoa. Casey turned Bargs into a joke?
                  Bargs turned himself into a joke.

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                  • A.I wrote: View Post
                    Bargs turned himself into a joke.
                    Thank you. Also, while I do think Smitch and Casey have their similarities as developmental coaches, and maybe we didn't have best developmental program at place at the time, but Andrea was gifted minutes, in spite of the coach, and in spite of readiness and buy-in on Andrea's side. The same might be said about DeMar, but his were accompanied by a workman-like approach.

                    With Jonas you have the buy-in, and a good deal of readiness, but he's been made to work, struggle, and learn his way to winning basketball with this coach. I just think it might end up being the better developmental strategy, that's all. I am more than willing to admit that human development, basketball or otherwise, is not an exact science.

                    Usually the best we can do is look at the improvement - is it there? If yes, then good.

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                    • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                      Thank you. Also, while I do think Smitch and Casey have their similarities as developmental coaches, and maybe we didn't have best developmental program at place at the time, but Andrea was gifted minutes, in spite of the coach, and in spite of readiness and buy-in on Andrea's side. The same might be said about DeMar, but his were accompanied by a workman-like approach.

                      With Jonas you have the buy-in, and a good deal of readiness, but he's been made to work, struggle, and learn his way to winning basketball with this coach. I just think it might end up being the better developmental strategy, that's all. I am more than willing to admit that human development, basketball or otherwise, is not an exact science.

                      Usually the best we can do is look at the improvement - is it there? If yes, then good.
                      No, he's been mishandled and held back from contributing when he's already known how to play winning basketball since before Casey got him. All Casey has done has been to delay his development. Jonas is a season+ behind. He's had pretty much all the tools he has now (only thing he's really developed is his post-up game, which he did in the summers away from Casey), and was already a pretty sound defensive player for his age who's been taking too much shit for the stupidity of his coach's system the last couple of years. Jonas always excelled in the defensive situations he's being used in more now, just Casey chose to minimize those situations. Obviously he's improved on both ends, but mostly just from reps, of which he has never gotten enough, and which he didn't need to be held back from so much given the ways he could already contribute in from the get-go.

                      Jonas led Lithuania to 4 gold medals (3 Europe and 1 World) at the junior levels before ever being coached by Casey, and 2 silver medals (Eurobasket) with the senior team since. Pretty sure he's always known what winning basketball is, which is why so many around here have been clamouring for him to be a bigger part of the team.

                      *It's fine to look at improvement, but most players will say that improvement comes from the player. Players job is to get better each summer, coach's job is to get the most out of them. Jonas has done that. He was already a driven player with a good work ethic before the draft. Despite improving a bit every summer, he got almost no increase in role and was an afterthought when trying to plan out team strategies for success. So I have a hard time pinning much on the coach. He may have helped drive down Jonas' extension price. That's the closest thing to a compliment I can give Casey on this.
                      Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:26 PM.

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                      • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                        Thank you. Also, while I do think Smitch and Casey have their similarities as developmental coaches, and maybe we didn't have best developmental program at place at the time, but Andrea was gifted minutes, in spite of the coach, and in spite of readiness and buy-in on Andrea's side. The same might be said about DeMar, but his were accompanied by a workman-like approach.

                        With Jonas you have the buy-in, and a good deal of readiness, but he's been made to work, struggle, and learn his way to winning basketball with this coach. I just think it might end up being the better developmental strategy, that's all. I am more than willing to admit that human development, basketball or otherwise, is not an exact science.

                        Usually the best we can do is look at the improvement - is it there? If yes, then good.
                        I can't complain about Casey's developmental strategies when it comes to Jonas. My problem is Casey doesn't utilize him properly in games.

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                        • However much credit you give Casey for the player Jonas has become, you should probably allocate equal parts blame for the player Terrence Ross has become.
                          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            No, he's been mishandled and held back from contributing when he's already known how to play winning basketball since before Casey got him. All Casey has done has been to delay his development. Jonas is a season+ behind. He's had pretty much all the tools he has now (only thing he's really developed is his post-up game, which he did in the summers away from Casey), and was already a pretty sound defensive player for his age who's been taking too much shit for the stupidity of his coach's system the last couple of years. Jonas always excelled in the defensive situations he's being used in more now, just Casey chose to minimize those situations. Obviously he's improved on both ends, but mostly just from reps, of which he has never gotten enough, and which he didn't need to be held back from so much given the ways he could already contribute in from the get-go.

                            Jonas led Lithuania to 4 gold medals (3 Europe and 1 World) at the junior levels before ever being coached by Casey, and 2 silver medals (Eurobasket) with the senior team since. Pretty sure he's always known what winning basketball is, which is why so many around here have been clamouring for him to be a bigger part of the team.

                            *It's fine to look at improvement, but most players will say that improvement comes from the player. Players job is to get better each summer, coach's job is to get the most out of them. Jonas has done that. He was already a driven player with a good work ethic before the draft. Despite improving a bit every summer, he got almost no increase in role and was an afterthought when trying to plan out team strategies for success. So I have a hard time pinning much on the coach. He may have helped drive down Jonas' extension price. That's the closest thing to a compliment I can give Casey on this.
                            Casey has gotten Jonas to 2 playoffs, getting a great performance from him in one of them. That is not the worst developmental environment I can think of. A season behind? Jonas is well in front of the vast majority of bigs at his age. I really don't know that you can ask for much more.
                            Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:50 PM.

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                            • There's nothing to Jonas' game that makes me think Casey's done anything other than an average job of development. What we know for sure is that last year, he was being forced to play in a defensive scheme that was ill-suited to his ability, which means that he lost an entire year of learning to play the kind of defence he should have been learning to play. And then, of course, there was all of the actual game time he missed - mostly in the 4th quarters - because of the fact he was a defensive liability, because the scheme was fucking ridiculous.

                              I'd also argue that based on JV's FT% and shot mechanics, his 15-20 foot jump shot should be WAY more developed than it is.
                              "Stop eating your sushi."
                              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                              - Jack Armstrong

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                              • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                                There's nothing to Jonas' game that makes me think Casey's done anything other than an average job of development. What we know for sure is that last year, he was being forced to play in a defensive scheme that was ill-suited to his ability, which means that he lost an entire year of learning to play the kind of defence he should have been learning to play. And then, of course, there was all of the actual game time he missed - mostly in the 4th quarters - because of the fact he was a defensive liability, because the scheme was fucking ridiculous.

                                I'd also argue that based on JV's FT% and shot mechanics, his 15-20 foot jump shot should be WAY more developed than it is.
                                That defense was a challenge for Jonas, to be sure, partly because of the perimeter players he was playing with. But challenge and failure result in some of the greatest learning, as long as a learning culture is there to reinforce the lessons and the player is receptive. All signs point to Jonas having learned some valuable lessons, literally zero reason to think that a year was completely wasted.
                                Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:56 PM.

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